Public apology to rotaryworks. and cintiq and what it is and isnt to me.

[redrichie]

First and foremost I wish to extend an apology to rotaryworks as recently he was gracious enough to hold a facebook competition giving away some of his machines to the winners of his art competition.He is a stand up guy and i applaud him for hosting any such event. We had a bit of a tussle and as usual I lose my cool and like to type fast and think later. Especially after 2 no call no shows on a friday.
Our skirmish began when I asked a question if I could use my WACOM cintiq as he stated only paint, pencil colored pencil etc. but explicitly excluded digital even though I entered (and did not win) his last competition with a digital piece. I felt a tad discriminated against as a digital artist especially when he said we should be artists and not computer freaks. Even though the likes of some of the best tattoosist in the world, such as dan hazelton, sean sullivan, markus lenhard and tons of other guys use digital media everyday. But alas it is his bbq and he can invite who he wishes.

That aside here is what the Cintiq is to me. A tool. something I use everyday to get my art out in an efficient and profitable manner. It is my sketch pad. MY light table. My canvas. EVERYDAY. I do use it a lot for editing and arranging things in photoshop for tattoos. if youre not using photoshop for certain things im telling you, you are behind the 8 ball fellas. I can take a picture of the clients area to be tattooed and rapidly draw on them with multiple thumbnail drawings right in front of the client. once a design is given a thumbs up I can then push the design to a near finished product in the same EXACT manner as if I use a pencil.
If a client brings in design or a picture I can use it as I would a light table. then print out my line work and make a stencil. that in and of itself has paid for this little nugget of technology.
As a canvas...What can I say. Simple. it is no different than painting. I use one round brush at different sizes and opacities. I use an eraser. thats pretty much it. Sure Ill use layers from time to time but in all honesty those end up being a bit of a pain in the ass as blending with layers doesnt work between 2 different layers. the object is to paint as normal as possible but without the mess. It allows a total range of any color I can imagine in any tone or hue I wish. With the cintiq you arent limited by your media but only by your ability.
About ability. This isnt some magic drawing bullet. Getting a cintiq or any wacom wont make you a better artist because you own one. Only you and your talent can do that. If you cant draw with a pencil or a brush then chances are you will still suck with one of these. in fact they tend to be a bit harder for quite a while as anyone who has used one will tell you. If you dont put in the hours of hard work and have some talent then your art will still look like like shit.
A few drawbacks. One appears to be the stigma that somehow digital art isnt real. If thats how you feel. Well whatever, I cant change that. Some others would be that you may use filters, or various other PHOTO type tools to give you an advantage. Well if thats what you are doing then whatever, you are cheating. But the artists that use this as a painting and drawing tool arent doing that. They use it in the same manner as anyone else uses canvas and brushes or pencil and paper. and with the talent they have personally spent hours upon hours and sleepless nights perfecting. The digital art I will post below are all still drawn BY HAND. No manipulations. You think Jim Lee of comic book fame uses a pencil anymore? pretty much no. he has a cintiq 24 HD. Why because the industry has progressed into the modern age. not that there is anything at all wrong with ANY anolog media. I love and use them all. But just like tattoo designs of old that have a special place so do the new bob tyrell and nikko and a thousand other realism guys tattoos.
Digital art is here and it isnt going anywhere. Its not meant to be a replacement to any of our time tested and beloved media. It is just that...another media. Give it a chance if you havent.
the first 2 are a fellow tattooists, chris morant's, digital works. his totem isnt even complete yet. the second 2 are mine. all paint. no photo manipulations. all of these works take the same amount of time and effort as any canvas or pencil media.
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[Fergus]

digital art and computer animation lovely looking as it is, will never replace the pencil and paintbrush. can any digital artist recreate the splendor of the cistine chapel or the dramatic lights and darks of a caravagio??? I like digital art, I went to classical animation college for four years before i got into tattooing and i worked as a web designer for a year back in 99 so im no stranger to photoshop,,,i also collect comics mainly 2000 AD since the early 80s and the artwork in comics today is all shiny and soulless compared to the hand drawn hand painted stuff of simon bisley/pat mills the horned god for example,,,,but as you point out, digital is here to stay. lets hope they dont invent a robot who can tattoo or we are all fucked!!!!!!!

[peter clements]

digital art and computer animation lovely looking as it is, will never replace the pencil and paintbrush. can any digital artist recreate the splendor of the cistine chapel or the dramatic lights and darks of a caravagio??? I like digital art, I went to classical animation college for four years before i got into tattooing and i worked as a web designer for a year back in 99 so im no stranger to photoshop,,,i also collect comics mainly 2000 AD since the early 80s and the artwork in comics today is all shiny and soulless compared to the hand drawn hand painted stuff of simon bisley/pat mills the horned god for example,,,,but as you point out, digital is here to stay. lets hope they dont invent a robot who can tattoo or we are all fucked!!!!!!!

You sir are a Guru, I agree entirely with every word you've said.

[redrichie]

No i do agree that its not a replacement for painted anything. no more than paint is a replacement for pencils. it has its place. I mean some dudes do better art than most of us with chalk and a patch of road. it doesnt make it any less of an art. And the stuff you mention above though true is comparing masters to ordinary dudes. My little sister can use the best paint and brushes in the world and her shit would be soulless and stupid next to frank frazetta. Then again so would mine. LOL. Its just a media. But on the flip side there are tons of tattooist that think we are fucking morons for using rotaries. Our response is either ,well you havent really tried it or to each his own. no right answer. except, does it work for you and does it help you earn a living doing it. Art is the destination not the road. As long as your not cheating and lying to yourself on the journey.

[FTW]

I use an i Pad and a few art programs to compose most of my stuff,then export to Photoshop for final sizing and off to my dot matrix printer for stenciling.
It saves me time and materials and customers love to watch u draw right over the picture u just took of them.
I can see how some people see it differently but art is art, whether its created on a tablet or other mediums..it don't draw it self
After putting in the time to learn to make the most of technology its serving me well, im sure at some point i will do stuff for my walls at home on a "real medium" but this just works well for designing images for tattooing.
i believe you have to do all you can to keep up with the times, im 46 and still learning how to use all this new fangeled stuff

[cagelavey]

god I cant stand it anymore! its like with machines, carts or any other new evolution in this industry. I cant believe how much people hate and fight change. it reminds me of sudo-religious zealots that burned innocent women on the cross for being witches because of ignorance and fear! im not singling any one person out but Jesus Christ! I currently have over 10,000 comic books/graphic novels, most are digital representations. to say that the art within those pages have no soul, and to state it as fact and not solely just personal opinion, is like saying rotaries are no where close to being capable of the same great work as coils. all of these views on such subjects are exactly that, just views. personal opinions and nothing more. ive always thought that the tattoo industry was full of idealist, individuals that stood against the grain. people who represented freedom from societal conformity and its un-constituted restraints of individual thought and creativity. we are not part of some elitist self-entitled group that should color inside the lines of what is acceptable. art is art, no matter the avenue taken. anytime that a person sets down in front of their chosen canvas and go to work to reproduce the images and ideas within themselves and let that pour out into this world for others to see, no matter the chosen medium that the artist so desires to use, whether it be with paints, ink, charcoals, or even digital format, etc. it has life and it has the soul of that artist within it. it is all just the same tired argument of what one perceives as acceptable and what is not. more times than not these perceptions are relayed as fact or what the moral majority deems acceptable. I for one love everything about art, tattooing or otherwise, but I love it because art is in the eye of the beholder and no one has the right to say what is art and what is not. I became a tattoo artist because ive always felt unaccepted and different from the masses. tattooing was a way to convey my self expression to the world and I loved the fact that tattoos didn't fit inside a mold, it gave me a way to be myself and sculpt my individuality in whatever way I saw fit, to work outside the moral majority. I no longer had to conform to what most people deemed normal. I know im ranting, and im sorry. its just we share our ideas, our thoughts, our passions, and our views and that's an awesome thing. I just feel that so many people in this industry miss the point of why it is so awesome to be an artist.one of the definitions of an artist is, "a person whose work exhibits exceptional skill. we may not always agree, like or understand what a person is trying to convey in their style of art or particularly care for the way in which someone chooses to produce it, but being artist ourselves, especially a tattoo artist/body modificationist, etc. we know what its like when our chosen craft is singled out, judged and discriminated against. so I just cant see the difference in that and the negative things being said or thought here. again, this is just how I feel. I just don't believe that one persons chosen field of expression has more validity than anothers, its just different, so let it live because the only way a persons piece of art lacks soul, is when others strip that soul from it. If a man does not keep pace with his companions, perhaps it is because he hears a different drummer. Let him step to the music which he hears, however measured or far away.
- Henry David Thoreau

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lxECotpkKzE/UR3AagLEYyI/AAAAAAAAI_g/SbQZnUNkRcc/s1600/Savage+Hawkman+09+c.jpghttp://product-images.highwire.com/636505/3035894.jpgwhich one has more soul? all depends on what appeals to the viewer I guess

[Fergus]

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I simply think this kind of artwork is more pleasing to the eye than that done in the digital medium,,,,im not witch-hunting anyone,,,,,,the whole point of art is to create an emotion in the viewer (or listener or wearer etc) so if it involves shitting on the pavement wearing a pink rabbit costume then good stuff out of them,,,,,i only said that the classical forms of art are superior to digital...and i stand by that,,,,its only my opinion, im only one guy,,,learning all the time an hope to never stop,,,,the hand drawn hawkman comic cover is totally rad btw.

[cagelavey]

thanks for stating that it was just your opinion, so many people have a hard time seeing situations three dimensionally(no pun intended) people are a lot of the time limited by their singular views. it all comes down to perspective. like I said "art is in the eye of the beholder." like for me for example. growing up, comics were a way for me to escape a horrible abusive childhood filled with bruises and belittlement. so I suppose on a subconscious level the more real and immersive the imagery and subject matter the more I was able to escape. like I said, perspective. a lot of times a persons reason for the enjoyment of different types of art has a more emotional and personal connotation. we like and respect art among other things(like different avenues to achieve art), based on personal and individual logics that many times cannot be made aware to others or even ourselves for that matter. in any event enough psychobabble, lol. what's aesthetically pleasing and a viable avenue to art for some, is most times lost on others. to each is there own, peace.:)

[Fergus]

word up bro. now get fucking painting!!!!! lol

[Heath]

I guess then guys like Sam Spratt aren't "real artists" to him?

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[Fergus]

still looks slightly digitized,,,,sorry man,,,,i see you have toy story as your avatar,,,,check "the snowman" cartoon by raymond briggs....nothing will ever touch that for a masterpiece,,,,,im standing my ground and as i said its only my opinion.....not trying to start a revolution here,,,,,,the spratt image looks great,,,,can you feel it with your hand? or does it exist on a flat screen.....my opinion only.

[Fergus]

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heres one i drew this week with a pencil,,,,im no aaron cain but i know how to draw. just so you know im not talking out my ass about how i feel about art. i study and work hard as much as i can lads.....digital works for you then fine,,,,dont work for me but i love looking at certain digital imagery,,,,,

[tatu richie]

man FUCK a computer, these things have fucking destroyed our brain, yes digital is cool, but what the fuck happened to the old fashion draw by hand ur fucking self, we are all gonna end up like those fat people in the movie wall e i think is the name. just draw with ur hands, learn from the comp stuff but do it by hand

[mattmillerink]

While I've seen some really impressive stuff with digital I feel MY work comes out souless through digital unless there was at least one step that required me to draw it by hand. I'm working on it though. But I still favor fine art mediums because it's how I started.

I think the people on this forum that are against digital medium are so because it... how should I say, it doesn't translate well as far as the physically DOING of it. While there are many ways to do a tattoo, there are no alternatives to performing a tattoo other than to TATTOO. While an impressive, Photoshop can spoil you with layers and filters. Whilst doing a canvas painting if you're trying to get texture or a blur you actually have to have an understanding of painting those things. One of the most important things is this: you can ruin your canvas. Spill shit, put something where it don't, etc. Instead of pressing CTRL+Z or deleting a layer you just have to deal with the consequences of screwing up. Ya it happens in photoshop but not nearly as often often/severe as a real life painting. It might not seem like a thing, but it is if we're all honest here when things get easy, we get lazy. It demands more of you as far as knowledge and attention is concerned, which in turn builds strong skillsets for tattooing.

Don't get me wrong, I love the tool. But I love my fine art mediums a LOT and while I have intentions to use almost all photoshop for a future comic I'm planning, and even comic nerds will agree, nothing beats the one and only original. Even signed comic prints are whatever in comparison to the oldies pencil boards.

[Hammer]

There is a notion of "Classic" it or who never will be canceled. I think not what digital art will not replace paper and pencil ...
Or anything personal, just my thoughts ...

[redrichie]

Guys this is my point. It is still drawn by hand. Period. It's a pen on a screen with an artist behind it. I think many have a misinformed notion of what a digital printing is as opposed to photo editing. It's the same shit as me saying if you used a light table to get your layout or your outline dine you fucking cheated. Fuck that. A light table is a tool. If you had a bad ass drawing covered the back in charcoal and did a transfer to your canvas that isn't cheating. Even though you meticulously laid out every detail with a pencil. Yet there are some dudes thst swish 3 brush strokes on a canvas and have a perfectly laid out portrait they start working away at. Again, sure you can use filters and whatever but if that's what you are doing you are just cheating yourself. Art is a visual representation of a feeling, emotion, or an idea.
And by the way when my buddy prints his shit out for prints on canvas then yeah, it's real. When I spend 40 hours behind my tablet painstakingly PAINTING a picture then it's real. I did it and so did anyone else who works at it. The third guy at our shop used to feel the same way as some of you. Now that he's been exposed to it and seen us work so hard at it that he now wants one.

Still trying to figure out the disconnect to where people somehow don't think I'm actually drawing a line when I move a pen over my screen just like a sheet of paper. If I can't draw then I can't draw regardless of my media. Not a magic bullet. It is drawing.

[Tkocevar1]

Why is even an argument.

[thesmokingmirror]

wacom drawn artwork is cool and in my opinion real art but its waaaaay faster than painting because of all the tools brushes and opacities available instantly so there is quite an unfair advantage there for a draw/paint based competition. -My opinion, I also dabble in digital art

[peter clements]

Nobody is saying there isn't some great digital artwork ,indeed some of us that love video games, the beauty involved in the games is heavily digital. The "classical" artform ,which is totally done by hand seems to have more soul, isn't that similar to our tattoo machines, in that a machine that is totally handmade be honest ,you cherish it that bit more than a production machine ,of course that doesn't mean there aren't any good production machines, Pulse ,etc.

[FTW]

I know the only "filter" I use is after I'm done drawing and I increase the contrast of the line drawing to help make for a better, longer lasting stencil other than that I just do as mentioned above with out the worries of spilling my coffee on my canvas...still can't drench my tablet but I know it's not the same and I'm guilty of going back if I draw a line or put shading where it's not appropriate but that's technology for ya... I'm learning to use it to my advantage.
As time and funds allow I can't wait to get some oil paint and canvas to create art for my home, my grandmother & mother were both talented artists on canvas and I'd love to follow in their foot steps one day.
just my 2 cents for what it's worth

[rotaryworks]

hello all first of all let me get this in there ……the first comp i did i did not dismiss any art work that be computer or pen pencil or pain all were judged and to be honest i did like your computer drawing just we thought the finalists was the best this is why i put it to the public to vote ……..
i have no problem with the technology that your using i think if it can get stuff done quicker i think use it …….but all of this has been blown out of control i myself is holding a competition for some free stuff to give some stuff back as a thank you to everyone so there are my suggestions to use pencil pen or paint i really don't see the problem i really don't yes i no some tattooist use technology to draw yes do it use it amazing not a problem ….
dude you made a big fuss on Facebook about it spoke to me like shit tried make me look stupid thats fine does not bother me at all i,m a grown man i can take it …….what i don't get is ( ME MYSELF NO ONE ELSE ME I MIGHT ADD IS TAKING THE TIME TO MAKE THE MACHINES PUT THIS COMP ON MY TIME AS I SAID ON FACEBOOK MY MONEY TO MAKE THEM AND AGAIN MY TIME FOR YOU THE WORLD TO DO A DRAWING BY HAND PENCIL PEN PAINT FOR FREE MACHINES AND STUFF AND NOW YOU HAVE GOT THIS FORUM INVOLVED WHY THE F..K FOR WHAT DO THE DRAWING SHUT YOUR MOUTH ENTER THE COMP LIFE GOES ON SIMPLE )
i would like to state i have nothing against the drawing stuff for you pc never have they are amazing things to have never used one myself but no need if you do good for you guys …..pen and pencil paint is what it is final …why this debate is going this far i,m hell if i ,no but its silly …..dude apology was not needed as you had a little episode and threw your toys out get over it i have i hold no grudge never do ….it is what it is life goes on i will say this if i wanted i could do nothing and just take take take all the time but i,m a fair guy and honest and work hard so i give back don't have to but i like to i.t makes me happy to see so many people making the effort yes its free stuff for doing some thing in return but really its so amazing to see everyone exited to take part in it so thats it i do it for fun and i like to share thats it …..so next time you get a bee in your pants and jump around just think hang on he's spending his time to sort this out for us as a gift for free for us all maybe i should just hold my lips and say thanks ………this as taken me 20 mins to type this and i,m missing x factor that i should not of had to do but hey i don't mind its only sunday night i be back to work tomorrow it all good …...

[redrichie]

Mostly because typing on Facebook fucking sucks. Secondly everyone who is there is here. If you don't think I should stand up and appoligize and give you a pat on the back for putting up a cool competition and your gear as a prize then I don't know what to say to you. Wasn't trying to make you look stupid, but you calling tools that are of a high end nature and, used by almost all other professional artists around the world, toys and calling Artists who use them computer freaks and not artists is in fact condescending, and the reason I had a bee in my pants. The rest of it was not talking to you in specific but put in a drawing thread. Where other people post their digital art. And meant to bring this topic to a discussion as so many seem to hold a grudge against the "toys" as you like to call em. That's it period. And as you may well be able to see a 3 page discussion about the tablet and not a thing about the first paragraph is being discussed. So other than you everyone else was talking about digital art.
All Iwanted is to say my bad for being a dick and then let's all as Artist talk about this. And I also said it's what it is and isn't to ME. As in my opinion. . That's it. In fact have enjoyed reading the thread thus far. Some nice insights as to why some guys seem to think one way and some to why others think another. It's good for all of us as a community to talk about.

[rotaryworks]

Toys I was refuting to as you getting shirty .. Dude it's a computer pad drawing pad or computer freak thing I don't no what it is if u use it amazing I don't have no problem with it it's a new world every day tech is getting better and better it is what it is no regrets in what I say it's done forgot move on .. Nice discussion with every one great to communicate opinion are split .. Thank u and enjoy the comp .. I hope your going to enter all this drama ..

[redrichie]

Thank you for putting it on. Like i said it is cool as fuck of you to put up your hardware for such a thing. It really is awesome.

[rotaryworks]

Respect .. Good luck work hard .. It's worth it in the long run .. Tomorrow is a new day .. Keep up the good work .. Let's rock this comp and make it special

[Tkocevar1]

Sooo. At the end of the day all mediums are just a way to make art. Who gives a fuck. Happy to read this though. It was almost like a jerry springer episode about drawing. Chairs were thrown biased opinions happen and nothing changed.

[kaydendigiovanni]

Yeah, I have come up against a ton of people who think that because its on a computer, that means that I didn't actually draw it. Like there are magic buttons to do the work for you.

I have used photoshop since 1995, and my cintiq gets used even more than my tattoo machines.


What I have always felt in my subtle conflicts, is that people who haven't even done it, just don't know what's going on. It looks like computer magic. And if you have no idea how to use any art program, then it is really intimidating. Which leads to fear and rejection. That's much easier than learning this giant program.

Tattooers who say that digital isn't art, are the same to me as painters who say tattooing isn't art. ...and they are probably they same guys that roll their eyes because I use a rotary. And you know what, fuck em. I have always been proud to be the ultimate outsider. Otherwise I wouldn't be in this industry.

[Tkocevar1]

Boom^ that's the whole point. Every person that I worked with at my old shop looked at me crazy when I started using 15 mags. It's just another fuckin tool for the job. I got even crazier looks when I started using rotaries. It's just another way to get from point a to b.

[ATS]

Nice thread! I too am of the opinion that we can use what works best for us and the client.. What really is important is that we strive constantly to grow both as artists and as people... That is what brings the fruits of labour.. And as has been said 'beauty/art is in the eye of the beholder'..

[Christo]

obviously a heated topic then.. redundant to argue though, its like trying to convince a basketballer to wear football boots just because you play football and you can vouch for them personally...
Every medium can be used to create art, which medium you choose to use is up to you, which mediums are allowed in a contest is up to the initiator. Art is FREEDOM.

[Fergus]

threads like this are good,, i like to hear other peoples views on not just whats the best tattoo machine or ink or whatever,,,but from an art point of view,,,,,painting,drawing, charcoal or digital its all good as long as we create a beautiful tattoo for the customer to wear......a thread I would like to see is why the Hell so many people photoshop the fuck out of the tattoos they post up??? its pretty misleading when you see the colours and the blacks amplified like this,,,,,grinds my gears actually.....

[redrichie]

I agree with this totally. Do not Photoshop your tattoos. Other than getting them together or cut from a background. Leave the contrast and saturation the fuck alone. If your doing that with your digital art you are also cheating yourself. That's where it starts bordering on, no you didn't do that the computer did it. Let your art stand for what it is the way you did it. Pick a color lay it down and then blend it with another. The morepeople paint in Photoshop or arrange or any digital just like they paint in real life then there can't be any argument. It will eventually just go away. Much like any medium and it is just accepted as talent.

[ATS]

threads like this are good,, i like to hear other peoples views on not just whats the best tattoo machine or ink or whatever,,,but from an art point of view,,,,,painting,drawing, charcoal or digital its all good as long as we create a beautiful tattoo for the customer to wear......a thread I would like to see is why the Hell so many people photoshop the fuck out of the tattoos they post up??? its pretty misleading when you see the colours and the blacks amplified like this,,,,,grinds my gears actually.....
Yes.. I'm with you mate.. This is about totally misleading folk.. It heightens peoples expectations beyond what is often possible....
In fact, is it any different than taking other guys work and pretending that it's yours? (I'd never do that btw), but pretending/misleading/deceiving is just that.. false!
Edit..This where all the glossy mags really hack me off! Ok, get ideas and all that, but bullshit photoshopping is just outright deception!

[FTW]

I couldn't agree more, photoshopping your tattoo photos is cheating IMO, I have MD's "get digital" and learned quite a bit from it but most adjustments I make Are made to images before I even make a line drawing.
in his video he edits out paper towel remnants and I don't see a problem with that but personally I don't even bother with that if someone asks I just tell the the truth, it's specks of the paper towels I use.
My after photos always suck anyhow, I just use my iPhone or iPad and always have glare from the shop lighting.

[Fergus]

I remember starting out in 2002 and taking photos with a normal camera,,,,waiting few days,,,going to the shop to collect the photos and opening them up to see if there were any good ones!!!! I still have some of those photos,,,the tattoos are awful but it was a start!!!

[kaydendigiovanni]

Yeah, photoshoping the photos of tattoos is BS. I actually worked with one guy that talked shit about me using the computer to draw on, but then he would use photoshop to make his tattoo pictures look better. It was amazing how fucked up he was, without realizing it.

I have those stacks of old photos too... back when people were convinced that disposable cameras were the best for tattoos, so I bought them in bulk! Haha! 1 picture from every camera was okay to use.

[cagelavey]

yeah photoshoping finished works sucks. its no different the airbrushing abs on models, lol. it makes peoples expectations unrealistic. granted its hard to get a legitimate photo representation of your work, but you shouldn't turn your work into a fallacy. just get a decent camera, a nice dslr camera and you can really capture the true saturations without lying to the public.

[PAWNJOB]

Digital is a totally valid way to work, just another medium. It is different than tactile drawing and painting. "Different" implies that it has advantages and disadvantages, not necessarily that it's better or worse. It's going to be really hard to convince anybody that's close minded and thinks computers are the devil's tool. One less tool in their arsenal, their loss.

I posted this merely to voice my opinion about working digitally, not to voice my opinion about the contest.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

[fkirons]

Andy Warhol couldn't say it any better: "Art is anything you can get away with"




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[Bruce Gulick]

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Yeah, digital art is so soulless I guess I should just stop.

(Run your contest any way you want but saying any art tool is below any other makes you look silly.)

[Blondan]

I think, if you could do digital art or you like to call yourself an artist, you shouldn't have any problem to use a basic art tool like the pencil and paper. You're using the same hands and same talent.... I understand the frustration but fuck it, get over it and prove that you are the artist that you pretend.
I don't think that people that do digital art, can only do digital... Is the same like saying I'm a great tattoo artist but I can't draw to save my life .


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[rotaryworks]

there is always one ……….bruce read the fucking posts …….this started because i said no computer image drawings in the comp …….for fuck sake what is so hard to understand ………..lets put it this way so you understand …….ITV hold a phone in comp thats phone in telephone 1.do you phone and enter or …2..do you phone and make a fuss and say i want to use my computer to enter its not fair ……even though its they comp and down to you to take part no one is forcing you its optional are they silly to …….what the fuck don't you get ……this shit is making me pissed off ……..in fact fuck this forum i,m done thought this was different fucking kids …...

[Administrator]

This is done.