Direct Drive Rotary Spits Ink Out Tip

[Alie K]

I recently acquired a Roy Richardson direct drive rotary. When I run it, (at about 4volts) and dip it into ink, the ink spatters and spits out the TIP (not up the tube like some dragonfly problems).

Anyone have a direct drive rotary? How do you keep this from happening? Am I bending the needle bar too much/not enough? Not enough rubber bands? Too many? Any Ideas?

[CJ Harper]

for lining or shading

[slicksteel]

When i had that machjne i ran the needles straight and but the rubber bands up higher towards the motor or they tend to bust. I think if you notched the motor plate on each side pretty far in as the frame permits (which i have seen others of this type do)you then use one standard rubber band wrapped twice or one of those thick wide n short rc plane rubber bands once. This helps to keep the bar from going side to side to much wich is causeing the ink spit. some of these machines will have a flat thick piece of metal shaped like a u channel screwed to the front of the plate so the needle rides in the middle of the grooveThis only allows a little bit of play as to not bind the needles/bar up. If you notice dan the rotary mans frames he has around round shaft going from his motorcan to his chuck.This allows him to rap the rubber band twice close to the needle bar as he stated on the forum to control the sway of the needle to somewhat get it going straight.I think his desighn is great as it's simple,works and puts the weight forward.But i do notice that with directdrive roterys they favor large mags to keep the the needles down with little play(weight) and small liner needle groupings with fitted round tip(less skin resistance and keeps the needle in one place as it exits tip.
Also dont stick the needles to far past the tip as it has no guide and support which will cause it jump,spit ink more. I hope I have helped a bit.If you done't like that front motor plate you could always get a new plate made with notches cut in so the center area were the rubber bands will wrap will be the same as the barrel thickness.If you get the straight plate style you can get 3 sets of notches in it so you can have some tension adjustment for differnet needles. It does have a excelent motor and chuck and would be very easy to mod it that way and sell your plate to recoup funds.

[The Limey]

Have you tried flipping the needle bar? I know a lot of people had similar issues with the N2 and that solved it for most, not the same set up I know but worth a try.

[Alie K]

Wow, Michael - thanks for your detailed response!

I'm not sure I could sell that plate - it's so cool! I'd like to keep the machine as it is if I can. I was using it to line with, and had one standard 'tattoo machine rubber band' wrapped twice around the plate to keep the needle in place. The needle goes back and forth almost as wide as the tube opening itself. I've thought about taking a video of it. Doesn't do a lot at the bottom, but I'm not sure that I'd trust it with 3's and delicate lettering. It DOES move a bit, but I don't think I'd notice with a 7 round or larger.

I might try Limey's suggestion of flipping the needle upside down and giving that a go first. Do I still put a bend in the needle if I do that?

[The Limey]

I'd start with just enough bend to counteract the tension of your bands and take it from there.

What does Roy suggest the working range for the motor is?

[slicksteel]

He suggested to me not to go over 8 unless you dont like the em(lol) 4 to 6 volts. that motor is realy powerful with a long voltage range and can push 44 mags easy.

[mattcicada]

i have this same probelm only thicker pigments always come out the top of the tube... i have tried tighter rubber bands , bending the needle bar out? does anyone else have this problem? what can i do?

[The Limey]

i have this same probelm only thicker pigments always come out the top of the tube... i have tried tighter rubber bands , bending the needle bar out? does anyone else have this problem? what can i do?

You could always try Needle Runners (https://needlerunner.com/) which stabilise your needles and block the tube at the same time.

[Administrator]

i have this same probelm only thicker pigments always come out the top of the tube... i have tried tighter rubber bands , bending the needle bar out? does anyone else have this problem? what can i do?

with what type of machine?

[Alie K]

i have this same probelm only thicker pigments always come out the top of the tube... i have tried tighter rubber bands , bending the needle bar out? does anyone else have this problem? what can i do?

One thing I've found with thicker pigments, is that I have to run my machines slower. If you are not having problems with thinner inks, only the thick ones, either dilute the thick ink with a drop of distilled water or witch hazel into the ink cap so that everything is uniform, or slow your machine down to accommodate the thick ink.

I think it was Specialtechnique and/or rjdaddio that posted an interesting response to a thread about Dragonfly machines spitting ink out the tube because of people running them too fast and it almost building up somewhat of a vacuum which made the ink travel up the needle...

[Dan Kubin]

do you think those needlerunners would work well with a direct drive?

[The Limey]

do you think those needlerunners would work well with a direct drive?

I really can't see why not if they do what they say they do, which is basically stabilize and centralize the needle in the tube, reduce friction and prevent stuff travelling up the tube. I guess it just depends on how cost effective they are. I have some ordered but don't have a direct drive to try them on.

[slicksteel]

I think they would work but you would prob have to clip on closer to the needle end as directdrives have to have some side motion play as to not bind up.

[Administrator]

I feel like we need to make a "will it work?" video!

[mattcicada]

i have one of roys and one of mikes they both do it... not the linear kind... what are needle bar runners?

[Administrator]

http://www.rotarytattoo.com/showthread.php/464-New-NeedleRunners?highlight=needlerunner

[The Limey]

I feel like we need to make a "will it work?" video!

That is a damn good idea actually!

[mattcicada]

thanks for the heads up!

[peter clements]

I have one of Roy's machines and they are beautifully made. Setting them up is not so straightforward ,you have to put a big bend in the needlebar and then you'll need like five bands doubled over to stabilise the bar I've also used two Orings at 16mm id which looks neater on the machine.The frame on my machine already has two notches machined into the edges which stop the Orings sliding down.With fiddling this is what works albeit tedious,however I have some Needlerunners on order and hopefully they will put an end to this game.

[Administrator]

Do you have a photo of the set up with the o-rings? just for reference.

[slicksteel]

tooo much hassssssleeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssss!!! althoe they are lovely machines!!

[mattcicada]

thanks guys for all the help!

[peter clements]

Do you have a photo of the set up with the o-rings? just for reference.

I'll set it up tomorrow and take some pics.

[Alie K]

I think they would work but you would prob have to clip on closer to the needle end as directdrives have to have some side motion play as to not bind up.

I'm not so sure they'd work on my direct drive. When I look at the needle, at the very top of the tube, there is a LOT of back and forth motion. It appears to just miss the sides of the tube opening. I feel like it would put a lot of strain on the needlebar, as it may force it to bend back and forth as it now doesn't have the room inside the tube to 'play'. I would think that could add strain to the motor? If not just the motor, but the pin in the bearing that the needlebar is attached to?

[peter clements]

Do you have a photo of the set up with the o-rings? just for reference.

Here's some pics.............................
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c363/petetatzon/2011_0122Rotaries0070.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c363/petetatzon/2011_0122Rotaries0071.jpg
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c363/petetatzon/2011_0122Rotaries0072.jpg
In the top photo you can see how severely you bend the bar ,in the other pictures you see the machine set up with Orings.You have to keep fiddling until the needle group can go back and forth with no upward or sideward waver.

[The Limey]

I'm not so sure they'd work on my direct drive. When I look at the needle, at the very top of the tube, there is a LOT of back and forth motion. It appears to just miss the sides of the tube opening. I feel like it would put a lot of strain on the needlebar, as it may force it to bend back and forth as it now doesn't have the room inside the tube to 'play'. I would think that could add strain to the motor? If not just the motor, but the pin in the bearing that the needlebar is attached to?

I'm not sure Alie; that sure sounds viable but, looking at the photos Peter just posted, there is one hell of a lot of tension on his needle bar and a metal tube should also present a less friction than a disposable so, who knows, it might even be a case of swings and roundabouts depending on what set up people are using?

I think Phil's idea of a will it work video is what's needed to solve this now?

[Administrator]

Will order some tonight. should really make a video with trying it with a few different machines , and tubes also need to make a will it autoclave video, ha!

[Dan Kubin]

I would be concerned that needle runners on a direct drive would lessen the positive effects...and the reason I use direct drives in the first place.
what I like is the "bite" I get from the needle oscillating in contrast to the "rubbing" effect I get with other rotaries. -granted, I use my swiss knockoff for b/g...but for color or lines, that oscillation really helps.
could the needle be spitting because the needle isn't centered front to back properly?
I really don't remember if I have gotten any spitting on my direct drive rotaries in a while, and I use really light tension on my elastics.

[slicksteel]

That Roy machine was made for dotwork - were you let the needle jig around to git a random stiple effect.Was not desighned for anything else.
U use a oversize round tip with a extra supertight 3 or a single

[Mozzer337]

Found this ancient post through google believe it or not. Ive been having some issues with my Uncle Roy machine. Been using it for whip shading recently and took the o-ring route as regards to needle tension. The machine aint spitting ink or anything, but it seemed really weak at driving the ink home. Upped the volts but no real difference. Then I noticed the o-ring had worked its way down the backplate and was actually burning into the top of the plastic tube!!! Ive noticed on some set ups that a couple of bands positioned near the top of the the needle bar and over the clippy contacts has been utilised anyone tried this method??