The new Terminator twin motor from Paulo Cruze is out!

[Sinnersink]

http://www.facebook.com/paulo.cruzes

Just sending a link to his Facebook. As well with a picture of the machine, What do u guys think? do we need the power of 2 motors? what difference can this make?
Its either 450 pound with maxon motor or 350 with rs motor.

Personally I'm urged to buy it. 11570

[Sage Oz]

Me too...


Sent from a galaxy far, far away...

[skinmech]

I don't think tattooed Vampires are gonna be happy with this Machine....Admin better be on their toes....P:D

[Sinnersink]

Tattooed vampires? i don't know that company, but i seen a lot building on this double motored machine, what do u think Skinmech?

[Sage Oz]

Haha it does look like it should have a tiny Jesus mounted to it. It really just comes down to what the torque and rpm curves of the two small motors compare to a bigger one.


Sent from a galaxy far, far away...

[skinmech]

LOL....Maybe I should have said Vampires who like getting tattooed,P.

[No Iron Machines]

Like the machines with 3 coils...

[Sinnersink]

What dó u Think ? That it kicks Ass?

[peter clements]

I just don't see the point, surely it's only novelty value.

[Tkocevar1]

I don't see the point either obviously one motor has been gettin shit done

[Sage Oz]

Anyone run one of these yet?

[asA]

Thom butler has the other twin motor one. Might wanna see what his impression is so far.

[Tengu315]

It's hard to imagine that anyone on this forum wouldn't want to at least try it once... I don't see the point either but that's kind of the point I guess ..
In other words.. I want one !
Or should I wait for the triple .. Or the Quattro .

[tattood]

Ill hold tight for the QUATTRO. also on the serious note ^^^ TENGU315 im glad u joined Ive seen alot of valuable information on ur posts

[Tengu315]

Thank you . I'm taking my kids to nuts berry farm and Disneyland for this weekend for there birthday.. It's costing me an arm and a leg and about 5 new machines . Damn ..

[nick]

Thank you . I'm taking my kids to nuts berry farm and Disneyland for this weekend for there birthday.. It's costing me an arm and a leg and about 5 new machines . Damn ..
You know it's bad when you are thinking of machines as a form of currency.

[Mark5]

Ones up on Ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Paulo-Twin-Rotary-tattoo-machine-/181096110301?_trksid=p2045573.m2102&_trkparms=aid%3D555003%26algo%3DPW.CAT%26ao%3D1%26 asc%3D33%26meid%3D6151277762831425151%26pid%3D1000 34%26prg%3D1031%26rk%3D1%26

[Sage Oz]

Ones up on Ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Paulo-Twin-Rotary-tattoo-machine-/181096110301?_trksid=p2045573.m2102&_trkparms=aid%3D555003%26algo%3DPW.CAT%26ao%3D1%26 asc%3D33%26meid%3D6151277762831425151%26pid%3D1000 34%26prg%3D1031%26rk%3D1%26

I was thinking about bidding on it lol

[crabink]

its lame

[MickWrath]

Seems really heavy, unbalanced, and unnecessary to me. We've established that one motor is enough to push any needle configuration. I guess it's like hunting a whitetail deer with a Hispano 20mm. Fun but completely ridiculous.

[directDRIVE]

Without commenting directly on Paulo's twin motor machine - i have my own personal opinions which are neither here nor there - I am currently prototyping a twin motor
machine and I will say that there is more to twin motor theory than meets the eye in certain specific applications.

To do it because it looks cool is one thing... to do it to satisfy a specific need is something entirely different (which heading this machine falls under? I have no idea)

[MickWrath]

David would dividing the stress on the motors in half be one aspect? I would suspect it would operate and lower volts as well, hopefully the Hz wouldn't drop too far though because I know low Hz can be hard on a rotary engine.

[Tengu315]

See.. Now it's getting interesting .

[OwlsDen]

I would think the torque would be doubled and this would be good for larger mags.

[Sage Oz]

Yes more torque and still high rpms

[jorgeantonio]

the machine looks cool, maybe its just me but i couldnt stop staring at his fingers. that tattoo is in there!

[MickWrath]

I don't know if the torque would be doubled, it still has to transfer synchronized torque through several components, depending on what style machine that component could be an armature bar, slider, springs, connecting link, cams, etc. not to mention the grommet and needlebar. I think a more likely situation is less volts, and less stress on the motors because they are working half as hard, this would result in longevity of motor life as long as both motors functioned at optimum performance, if one motor fell behind it would create more stress on the good motor and system failure premature. I've never tried to build or test a dual motor so it's hypothesis based on general experience with various motor performance and operating systems. I think an easier way to beef up the torque would just be simply upgrading the size of the motor, so there would have to be the need for different benefits to having dual motors besides torque and power, there's not a need for those things when we can just toss in a larger more powerful motor with a higher cyclic rate, more watts and more volts...however with the advancements in machines breaking ground so quickly I honestly wouldn't be surprised if electronic circuit boards are the next big steps. Like a rev unlimiter or a mini power commander. I still see dual motors as more work than just slapping 2 on a machine, if done correctly with A LOT! Of research, development, mathematical equations, trial and error maybe it could have it's benefits...question is did Paulo do his homework? Time will tell.

[slicksteel]

He told me they line lquick like a viper!

[MickWrath]

Haha so does the cranker slick, lol and there ain't dual kamis or maxons in her.

[Tengu315]

I do not know the numbers or the science behind it.. But I know that my instinct is telling me that unless you have some kind of clutch or something to sync them.. driving one A-bar with two motors seem more trouble than good.

[OwlsDen]

I do not know the numbers or the science behind it.. But I know that my instinct is telling me that unless you have some kind of clutch or something to sync them.. driving one A-bar with two motors seem more trouble than good.

On a large scale yes, on a small scale ( like the tattoo machine ) it isn't that much of a problem.. The benefit will happen when you bog it down, the added torque will bring back up to speed faster..

[peter clements]

Paulo let me pick one up and play around with it at AMJAM ,very low vibration,quiete,and surprisingly nicely balanced in the hand.The build looked good, but truthfully as with all machines you'd have to roll with it quite a while to make judgement. Paulo did say they have a lot of torque, and are for the artist that doesn't like f*cking around.

[MickWrath]

I had one of his coils some years back and it ran pretty nice. Hopefully he put as much into these as he did to build his coil reputation...before the drama that is.

[directDRIVE]

David would dividing the stress on the motors in half be one aspect? I would suspect it would operate and lower volts as well, hopefully the Hz wouldn't drop too far though because I know low Hz can be hard on a rotary engine.

Aesthetics aside... what we are actually dealing with is torque and desired output across a given range here and - I can only talk about my own specific application - halving the load is indeed one of the many factors, though you really need to consider what the actual real world load is and if it indeed necessitates halving - for example in the Old Timer I use one 5w motor, I could use two, but there is no real accomplishment in halving the given load.



I would think the torque would be doubled and this would be good for larger mags.

Again, spot on on both counts! but the same could be achieved with a higher rated motor... again, no real advantage to substituting one high spec motor for two slightly lower spec motors - my experience being that to run two motors of say 2.5w to achieve an output of 5w is a false economy in combined weight, size, cost ect etc and a poor trade off against a higher rated single motor - if you want 4/5/6/7w, high torque at low RPM, wide power band etc etc it is much more beneficial to run a single motor of that rating



I don't know if the torque would be doubled, it still has to transfer synchronized torque through several components, depending on what style machine that component could be an armature bar, slider, springs, connecting link, cams, etc. not to mention the grommet and needlebar. I think a more likely situation is less volts, and less stress on the motors because they are working half as hard, this would result in longevity of motor life as long as both motors functioned at optimum performance, if one motor fell behind it would create more stress on the good motor and system failure premature. I've never tried to build or test a dual motor so it's hypothesis based on general experience with various motor performance and operating systems. I think an easier way to beef up the torque would just be simply upgrading the size of the motor, so there would have to be the need for different benefits to having dual motors besides torque and power, there's not a need for those things when we can just toss in a larger more powerful motor with a higher cyclic rate, more watts and more volts...however with the advancements in machines breaking ground so quickly I honestly wouldn't be surprised if electronic circuit boards are the next big steps. Like a rev unlimiter or a mini power commander. I still see dual motors as more work than just slapping 2 on a machine, if done correctly with A LOT! Of research, development, mathematical equations, trial and error maybe it could have it's benefits...question is did Paulo do his homework? Time will tell.

Doubled, possibly not but as good as. Baring in mind that running a single output of lets say 5w (just for arguments sake) you will suffer some form of loss from motor armature, through the drive system to the actual business end of your grouping; and that loss will be the same regardless of the number of motors you are running (theoretically) - if you loose 5% of your potential through your drive system then you loose 5% overall, and it is the output at the business end that counts.

Less stress on the motors at a lower voltage is true, per say, but you have to bare in mind that what you are trying to achieve is the result of a given set of parameters and those parameters are set by the motors that you are running - running a single motor that puts out 5000 RPM at 6v for example is no better or worse than running 2 that each put out 5000 rpm at 3v as they are all designed to operate at an optimum V/RPM/Torque inherently anyway (A high end motor that is designed to run at 6v will not 'outperform' 2 that are designed to run at 3v)

You do make an excellent point with regards to running dual motors in the instance of one lagging the other as this would indeed sap power from the stronger of the two, thus increasing amps drawn, resulting in overworking, over heating etc etc - something that I have pondered on and have one definitive answer... use good, reliable high end, rare earth magnet motors :D

"an easier way to beef up the torque would just be simply upgrading the size of the motor"

My sentiments exactly!

"I still see dual motors as more work than just slapping 2 on a machine"

Absolutely spot on on, I am definately more of a 'form follows function' kinda guy, and I arrived at a dual motor solution as a means to an end.... all i can say is watch this space (well, not this space, but you know what I mean :o)


Ok, I think I'd best leave it there as I think I may have already said far to much - I will say that I like it, it looks cool and I'm sure works well, is it necessary, probably not, but hey, who am I

[MickWrath]

You're a great builder and full of knowledge and experience David. Great response and hopefully it helps those understand the twin motor and it's performance benefits better. I'm sure the more we tinker with it the more will be revealed about it and it's pros and cons. Mick!!

[BLCXIII]

I just bought a renegade from him . Same twin motor design just side by side for a more conventional feel. It runs amazing! Packs black and color. Works for blends and I even did some black and grey with it. The cord he sent broke in two days but it was free. So whatever a quick trip to radio shack and I was back at it. The machine continues to impress me though! I am pretty happy with my purchase.

[directDRIVE]

now, the Renegade is a totally different kettle of fish

[OwlsDen]

now, the Renegade is a totally different kettle of fish

I would quite enjoy to hear your take on the side by side twin motor design. I would imagine that having both motors spinning in the same direction is better for the motors. What do you see as the benefit of such a design?

[directDRIVE]

I would quite enjoy to hear your take on the side by side twin motor design. I would imagine that having both motors spinning in the same direction is better for the motors. What do you see as the benefit of such a design?


Without giving too much away :o Its the parallel configuration that I have most vested interest in...

A side by side configuration offers the most potential - in my humble opinion - both for success and for resounding failure. I will allow the rest of you make up your minds as to my conclusions - the former of the later...


In this instance the question is not so much on the motors, and whether they run in the same direction or not, but on the accuracy of the motor, the subsequent given RPM per motor at a given voltage and the effect on the coupling/linkage that connects the drive of the motors to the armature/needle drive system (somebody earlier mentioned a 'clutch' system, and its necessity was briefly discussed...)

To expand, My issue in this application is first and foremost the motors and the pairing of the RPM at a given voltage. No two motors are created equally - fact. Even the highest spec motors have a degree of - almost immeasurable - variance, meaning that at any given voltage, unless specifically manufactured to be paired and to work in sequence (unheard of outside the realms of aerospace technology as far as I am aware), no two motors will output the same RPM. In simple terms, one motor has potential to make 1 full revolution per unit, and the other to make 1.5 revolutions, or 1.1, or 0.9 etc. etc. thus not in sync.

Secondly, combine that variance with a non-fixed linkage, and you have potential for trouble. If the point at which the linkage connects to an eccentric cam is a bearing, and the point at which the two 'uprights' connect to the cross member are pivoted, with the centre upright that connects to the armature/nipple appears being fixed; at some point when the motors run out of sync (which may or may not be the case here) you are going to have the separate cam's independently driving in apposing directions - one lifts, the other pulls down.

But then again, I could be VERY much mistaken.

The terminator seems to have a fixed linkage as far as I can see, thus somewhat negating all of this, but all with its own set of complications

[directDRIVE]

But then again, I could be VERY much mistaken.

But I'm not :o

[Sage Oz]

There are many RC cars(such as the Losi mini LST) with two motors (linked by a gear) that have no issues with the design, and have proved its validity. As long as the two motors are linked, they will work in harmony without issue as long as they are generally close to the same rating.

[directDRIVE]

There are many RC cars(such as the Losi mini LST) with two motors (linked by a gear) that have no issues with the design, and have proved its validity. As long as the two motors are linked, they will work in harmony without issue as long as they are generally close to the same rating.




You are absolutely right, and I do hope that my theoretical mumblings were taken as nothing more than that, however...



There are many RC cars(such as the Losi mini LST) with two motors (linked by a gear) that have no issues


you mention gears, I see no such gears.



As long as the two motors are linked, they will work in harmony without issue as long as they are generally close to the same rating.


when used to drive two, seprate independent axles of a truck, absolutely! Or, when using a single, syncronised dual output brushless ESC, then yes indeed.


Either way, my comments are purely theoretical here say, and are to serve no other purpose than to generate discussion

[OwlsDen]

http://www.hpieurope.com/graphics/kits/kitpages/505/slippert.jpg

Here is a twin engine geared system from and RC car.

[Tengu315]

Interesting ... How fast does this thing spin?... With the gears?

[OwlsDen]

Interesting ... How fast does this thing spin?... With the gears?

Looks like 4-1 ratio. So if the outside are spinning at 20,000rpm the big gear would spin at 5,000rpm. However the torque would be multiplied by 4. Remember torque is the actual power. This would have some serious oomph.

[directDRIVE]

Looks like 4-1 ratio. So if the outside are spinning at 20,000rpm the big gear would spin at 5,000rpm. However the torque would be multiplied by 4. Remember torque is the actual power. This would have some serious oomph.


There we have it! I see gears ;)

Twin motors, coupled to a single fixed drive shaft - my sentiment entirely (no opportunity for them to run out of sync)


It looks to be a 3:1 (20 tooth to 60 tooth - but who's counting :D) and the torque would indeed be tremendous!

[directDRIVE]

Orientation also looks, erm, familiar to something sat on my workbench!!

[Cabal Tattoo]

Surely powerful but bulky...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[inkinwi]

Point of rotaries is to make a simpler more efficient machine. Only way this design has any validity would be to have some gearing system that utilizes both motors and steps the power into on drive system, which to me seems foolish. Why all the extra parts and 2 motors to achieve what you could with a single motor of a different rsting. I have no interest in this