New Stigma Fly-Needle tensioner and tube lock !

[Zapp]

Check out the new Stigma Fly !
First edition !
New edition !
Dragonfly !
127112731272

[slicksteel]

i think it is lic from them

[Zapp]

Its not ! I know Hikmet from Ink Machines !

[The Limey]

I would like to see a side by side review of these two in use as they look pretty much identical now.

[Administrator]

They are about the same price too? I wonder if the fly is still completely autoclavable still... well minus the motor that comes off.

[rjdadio]

So they don't have permission from Ink Machines?

[Zapp]

I talk to Hikmet from Ink Machine and he say: They dont have !
Can you believe how surprised he was when he saw the pics ?

[rjdadio]

What kind of shit is that?

Kind of like clips and myself....

[Alie K]

On one hand, you can say that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

On the other hand, you can also argue that the dragonfly posted their complete machine breakdown right on their website for all the world to see. If you wanted to, you could count exactly how many parts it took to make each component.

Unless they posted the wrong image, it's almost as if they said, "Ok world! Here it is on a silver platter! Want to see what our machine is made of? You don't even have to take it apart! We'll take it apart and show you how it's put together!!!"

[Alie K]

here's the breakdown (http://www.inkmachines.com/sites/default/files/image/spareparts_big.jpg)

If you want to keep your cards a secret, hold them close to your chest....

Very nice of them to post it so that artists can take a hands-on approach to machine repair, but perhaps maybe not the best idea?

[slicksteel]

I think prob the best idea would be to not do that ,and only have your parts for your paying customers.

[slicksteel]

Yea I think builders borrow idea from each other(progress) but it not so cool to straight up copy with out paying it forward! I think the only way to go would be to support the original makers ideas so they will be able to still be able to make great machines for the end user.
Just my 2cents on it!

[The Limey]

here's the breakdown (http://www.inkmachines.com/sites/default/files/image/spareparts_big.jpg)

If you want to keep your cards a secret, hold them close to your chest....

Very nice of them to post it so that artists can take a hands-on approach to machine repair, but perhaps maybe not the best idea?

I'd take that down and send a pdf to people that purchase them although that isn't going to make any difference now...

[Alie K]

Seriously! I was surprised when I saw that! BOOM! Right there. I guess that's why the Swash doesn't send you the manual with it anymore. Too many knockoffs because of doing just that.

[Administrator]

Seriously! I was surprised when I saw that! BOOM! Right there. I guess that's why the Swash doesn't send you the manual with it anymore. Too many knockoffs because of doing just that.

About 100+ pages of said knockoff listed on eBay, usually in gold.

[rjdadio]

From day one, my machine manual has been online in PDF form....but with password protection. You buy a machine, you get the password.

[Alie K]

From day one, my machine manual has been online in PDF form....but with password protection. You buy a machine, you get the password.

Even with that, I might still be paranoid that someone bought a machine just to show someone else the secrets behind it. (though it DOES keep you from having to deal with all the minor repairs or maintenance that a person could simply do themself)

[Alie K]

...Kind of like putting photos up on Facebook. Post a nice tattoo, you know someone will copy it an mimic it.

[Tommy]

they should have patented it (i don't know that they haven't).

but like with any other thing, discerning consumers will go with the actual innovator, not the copier. especially when its no cheaper.

[Administrator]

Patents cost A LOT of money and are easily circumvented by a minor change. Lawsuits also cost a ton of money. The needle tensioned is not an integral part to the design and function of that machine. Though it did make them unique its tough because a minor changes can be argued as improvements not copying. I agree, people vote with their wallets and in the end the consumers will make a choice either way. The dragonfly guys are the new kids on the block compared to stigma but have had had the concept of that needle tensioner on their machines from day one.

Do you buy based on the consumer based excitement of whats new new new? or do you buy based on legacy and reputation.

[Tommy]

I buy based on more than that. Actual Quality is highest on the list. I will take factor such as integrity and reputation into account.

As it is, it will take a LOT to get me to step away from Dragonfly (just got my 3rd... a short stroke liner). I haven't seen anything since trying dragonflies to even intice me. Not that it can't happen, but it hasn't happened yet... and ripping off Dragonfly certainly isn't gonna do it.

[Administrator]

You should show your loyalty to the builder and add the dragonfly tag to your name. :) helps other users who are new here if they are looking for one they know you have one and can ask your honest opinion on them.

[Tommy]

You should show your loyalty to the builder and add the dragonfly tag to your name. :) helps other users who are new here if they are looking for one they know you have one and can ask your honest opinion on them.

right on.

umm... how?

[sneekers]

still,it doesnt matter,i cant afford either!!

[Administrator]

right on.

umm... how?

http://www.rotarytattoo.com/showthread.php/397-Buttons-I-WANT-ONE!-(Machine-loyalty-badges)

:)

[otto]

well,who was first,the chicken or the egg?
witch of these constructors made first the rotary with damper..?.. i think stygma did,so who is copying who?

[The Limey]

well,who was first,the chicken or the egg?
witch of these constructors made first the rotary with damper..?.. i think stygma did,so who is copying who?

Hmm you have a point but, who also uses a swashplate and now a needle tensioner?

Either way, it stops things stagnating which is beneficial.

[slicksteel]

o well in the end we are realy getting some cool machines! which seems to be advancing the art to a higher level.So machine builders try to look at it this way.

[otto]

seriously i saw that kind of needle tensioner in the past,about 8-9 years ago on some machine..nothing new
everybody should know that any product displayed on internet will give ideeas to another guy and so and so..after posting it,it s not yours anymore:)

[fkirons]

That needle bar tensioner that dragonfly created is just Genius. Hands down to them.
However, I have seen similar stuff many years ago as well on coil machines. I remember a brass weird looking machine that had something like that but instead of bearing used grooved brass rod. It was bulkier but almost same concept. The thumbnut wasn't that fancy, I remember it was a plain ol' screw. I wish I can find that picture somewhere on the net.

I like the clip idea too. I have my own "little bit from there, little bit from here and little from my own" needle tension device" They all do the same thing.

I think everyone making rotary or coil machines need to be open to share and fusion ideas to make things together and better. (although it sucks when they just straight out rip you off and y the product ends up on WWT site....) anyway....

Back then when Thomas Edison made that engraver machine, he was original (well maybe thanks to Tesla...), Then Samuel O'reilly though he would keep today's builders out of commission (lol) and patented the device as a "tattooing device". He changed a few things around Edison's work and made it a patent number. Whatever they did, I thank them a bunch and we owe them! but even after that things kept on improving. This is an example.

The research and development of everyone has given DragonFly, Stigma, Neotat, FK Irons, Yo mom.... the capability to take their products to where they at now. To think of a rotary machine is like a hair clipper modified is not that far off neither... and how about an electric toothbrush?. I've taken all kinds of household devices apart and amoist everything can be turned into a tattoo machine, basically.

Take apart a mechanical pen and BANG! there is a give concept right there similar to the Dragonfly.
I'm sure many other builders on this board, like me contemplated that idea as a "give concept".

To think that we have re-invented the wheel...is as wrong statement. We, like O'reilly can just simply make it better. Most of that parts use to build a machine are inventions on their own: screws, nuts, bearings, motors, coils, etc.

I will call you a revolutionary when you can come up with a device that tattoos without poking wholes, without ink mess, and without pain...but where is the fun then!...
Until then we are all "O'reilly wannabes" lol

I do have to admit that the tensioner on the stigma is a straight up copy of the dragonfly, but the more I look at it I like the one on the stigma version too because is more streamlined, not to sticky as it appears on the dragon fly. In other words Dragonfly nailed it. I think iit can be streamlined even more: two flange bearings, two orings, two sprins, a custom thumbnut and the arm that retains the bearings are way too many parts to achieve the needle tension effect... However it works great.

I still prefer rubber bands because they are disposable and that is a plus for me. I like to throw away anything that is in direct contact with the needle...another reason why I use disposable tubes mostly for medium to small size pieces.
If I could dispose the machine I would.....Disposable machine!!!!!, why no, at $3 bucks a pop, imagine that! you just peal off a blister pack with a one piece needle/tube/machine after using you toss it. That's kind of the next level.

I think the lesson learned here is "to take what's good without being too obvious."
I have a Spaulding roger, it's really old.
That was the first streamline rotary machine that enlighten a lot of people in the rotary world.

National and Spaulding came up with a few good inventions themselves.
In fact that Spaulding rotary I was talking about machine has a patent number on it!...aghhh patents thats another whole new post worth the debate!

Take a look at cars for example. When someone invented the Airbag system, the whole car industry adopted a technology that was going to make driving safer. Of course in such a big industry patents fly from left to right and everyone feeds the creator. Our industry is still small and humble most of us builders still building machines our of own houses, garages, to patent a brilliant idea in our industry is sometimes a tragedy. If I had to pay $40000 in royalties to be able to use coils on my machines I would have never built a machine in my life. The small guys in our tattoo industry are the ones bettering it and looking forward for a better and safer tattooing. Most of us still tattooing at the shop and developing machines.

I would love to keep our industry this way forever...

I know that I went back and forth and not making sense it's 7:07AM AM time to go to bed at least for a couple of hours :)

[fkirons]

...nah I'm going to bed.

[Alie K]

You sir, are awesome.