Problems with Dragonfly Tattoo Machine

[Alie K]

I have heard mixed reviews on Dragonfly tattoo machines. Some people report that ink is travelling up the tube and onto the needle bar. Anyone else had this happen?

[phatmountain]

I use Dragonflys for travel & don't have that problem. The only difference I could see is the type of needles used. I used PRICK PREMIUM needles. I've heard that putting some vasiline halfway up the need bar works. But I honestly havn't had to do that. Just finished this piece with the Dragonfly's a couple hours ago. I usually use N2's but after hearing of those problems I had to chack it out. I love these machines.
http://amuen.com/Decker/albums/515/16303

[brian.harris]

i have only been using rotary for about 2 weeks now, and the dragonfly is my first one. i am having a huge issue with this at the moment. not sure whats causing it but i messaged christian for some insight.

[Alie K]

Maybe it's the settings you have it on, Brian. Might help to mention how many volts you run your machine at, if you bend your needle and where, what tension you have the dampener on etc.

[brian.harris]

yeah, i figure its something im doing wrong with it because it doesnt always happen. maybe over arcing the bar?

[The Limey]

I had the same issue with my Hyper and thinner inks/washes. Their answer was to put a blob of petroleum jelly on the needle bar somewhere above the wash hole... it solved the issue but annoyed me nonetheless :(

[brian.harris]

ill try that. it didnt do it to me last night so i really think i was over arcing the needle bar and overtightening the tensioner to compensate.

[specialtechnique]

the ink will travel up the tube for a couple reasons... 1 - capillary attraction in the space between needle bar and tube wall. 2 - the forward movement is a lot faster than the backward movement and you're using thick inks. using vaseline doesn't fix these problems but will keep the ink more or less where you need it to stay. bend your needle LESS, and relax all the rubber on the machine AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE ALWAYS. slow down the machine for thick inks, no matter what. i don't think the brand of needles matters, only that there is enough room between tube wall and needle to avoid capillary attraction.

[brian.harris]

i have been running my color at the longest stroke and lowest voltage, the only time i have tried to speed it up was for wash and that didnt go so well. but thank you for confirming what i was thinking, over bending the bar and tightening the tensioner too much.

[Alie K]

the ink will travel up the tube for a couple reasons... the forward movement is a lot faster than the backward movement ... relax all the rubber on the machine AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE ALWAYS. slow down the machine for thick inks, no matter what.

So, in my mind, when I heard of some people describing these problems, it almost sounded like a slingshot action from however they had their dampener set - almost like it was yanking the needle backwards and just pushing it forward. Would that be somewhat accurate?

[rjdadio]

I would say that needle setup and speed are most likely the biggest issues. Many are not having the ink creep problem when using the Dragonflys....and some are. I would suggest taking a look at your needle bar bend, maybe bend less, maybe bend more. You need to closely look at how the needles are setting up at the tip. Are they curving up due to too much bend or elastic, are they not fully riding in the tip. Also I would suggest slowing down the run speed. After working with rotary machines for more than 6 years I can tell you that most artists will start out by running their machines too fast, and I have found that by slowing the rotary machine down, the artist will find that "sweet" spot that works the best for them.....and the ink will fly in.

On the engineering side of things...with some of the new rotary machines with adjustable give....not dampening, that there could be inherent vibrations produced inside the system. The spring rate may be vibrating at a resonant frequency with respect to the running speed. I would think that progressive wound springs or double springs with different spring rates would fix any vibration effect. So I would suggest that the machine builders take a look into this.... in order to make their machines that much better. I'm a "mad scientist" type and I designed a vibration analysis test fixture that we use here....I can mount tattoo machines and measure and record the vibrations going on....along with other data....and one would be suprized at what liitle changes made in any machine can do for those strange vibrations and harmonics. With the wrong vibrations, the needle bar can act like a feed mechanism and move the pigments right up the bar.
- Ray

[JohnnyChaos]

I've had it happen with my old hyper v1.
I thought it was like this. If you imagin putting a ball bearing on to a plank of wood. If you grab that bit of wood and move it left and right in a completely smooth and even way, the bearing will stay in the middle.
But if you were to put more force in to one direction, the bearing will go that way.

I figured that a coil machine would always have a bit more force in one direction which is why they never have this problem and often make better liners.
Were as a rotary wouldn't need much to make the ink go the other way. A bit more friction on the tube, the angle you're working at, rubber band tension ect ect

I might be totally wrong but it sounded plausable to me :)

[mmtattoo]

if you lift the bar where the gromet and needle bar sits a bit it should stop it.

[Alie K]

I'm a "mad scientist" type and I designed a vibration analysis test fixture that we use here....I can mount tattoo machines and measure and record the vibrations going on....along with other data....and one would be suprized at what liitle changes made in any machine can do for those strange vibrations and harmonics. With the wrong vibrations, the needle bar can act like a feed mechanism and move the pigments right up the bar.
- Ray

Wow, Ray, you amaze me! That is really interesting!

[rjdadio]

Hey....I'm just me......can't leave good enough alone

[The Limey]

Hey Ray, this is me being the nerd with a physics degree so my apologies to everyone else for being a little of topic but have you used your "mad scientist test rig" to see which material dampens vibration the most for traditional machines and if so, what came out on top?

[rjdadio]

You know.....I never tested different frame materials with it....hmmm? From experience, soft cast iron and bronze always ran better than stainless, aluminum or plastic in coils. I never gave it a thought to..... I get focused and.....hmmm. Thanks, good idea!

Off topic....
Yeah, I almost became a physics major, on to teaching. I worked my way thru college tutoring math and physics.... loved the hell out of it.....had to make my choice between math, physics or engineering. The mad scientist stuff?......I've got the hair for it....

[The Limey]

I never gave it a thought to..... I get focused and.....hmmm. Thanks, good idea!

Off topic....
Yeah, I almost became a physics major, on to teaching. I worked my way thru college tutoring math and physics.... loved the hell out of it.....had to make my choice between math, physics or engineering. The mad scientist stuff?......I've got the hair for it....

Oooh please please post your findings if you get around to testing it!

Haha very similar although I chose coastal engineering for a bit... No hair here but that's by choice!

Right, I promise to stay on topic now as if Ray does test stuff I'm sure he'll post it on another thread :)

[Administrator]

You can always start new threads about metallurgy and science stuff. This is all good info.

[SAACADELIC]

I love the dragonfly, But I have had pigments run up my needle. Pain in the ass. Last time it got all up into the mechanism. Mega pain in the ass. As my reward for staying late to finish a leg sleeve one evening, I bounced it off the floor by yoking it off the counter by the cord. Threw it all outta wack. Not quite as sturdy as $500 should warrant. Ive heard about swashes breaking easily but Ive boun ced mine off the floor a couple times and its fine. ( yes I bag my machines. everyone should)

[Tommy]

when i used waverly, ink ran up the needle constantly. since switching to electric ink, the problem has disappeared. many other problems have disappeared as well.

i think the ink creep is related to the needle tension wheely deal. try not cranking it down any harder than necessary, and thin your inks a bit... or switch to electic/easy glo. ;)

[Tommicrazy]

ages ago I had this problem when I use needle bar with wrong angle , or elastic band tension was not right then machine was spraying into tube..... it is probabely problem with dragonfly that you press needle bar to hard with the screw.

[AllisonLawson]

I've been using my Dragonfly for a couple of months now and I haven't had any problems with it at all. Sometimes I even forget to bend the needlebar (as the machine manual suggests). I haven't had a problem yet.

I use it with Eikon needles, various brands of disposable tubes and various brands of ink including Eternal, Intenze and Kuro Sumi.

[Alie K]

I've been using my Dragonfly for a couple of months now and I haven't had any problems with it at all. Sometimes I even forget to bend the needlebar (as the machine manual suggests). I haven't had a problem yet.

I use it with Eikon needles, various brands of disposable tubes and various brands of ink including Eternal, Intenze and Kuro Sumi.

Good to know! I still would like to get a pink one...

[Mr.Taboo]

Thank you all for the info in this thread.

I got my Dragonfly the other day and was waiting for a regular to come in to try it on ( didn't want to try it on a walk in in case I had problems with my first try with it ).
One of my clients with a ongoing sleeve piece came in and was game for me to try out my new machine.
Started off black shading and using a 50/50 wash and was loving life.:D
Next , time for some color dipped in some dark blue ( PermaPro/Unique ) and noticed in a few secs that I had ink creepin' up the bar :confused: .
I had skimmed this thread along with a few others while waiting for my Dragonfly to show up. And remembered a few things from it.
Unbagged machine , checked bar tensioner didn't seem too tight ( Turned till it made contact with bar and then a little less than a quarter turn more to snug it down a bit ).
Also added a little distilled water to the ink and even got a new needle and tube and still no good. Well I had work to do so I got out one of my coil machines to finish the session.
Tomorrow is my day off and if the missus "Honey do" list ain't too bad I'm gonna head over to the shop and try out some of the things in this thread to see if I can get a handle on things.

[nathan bauer]

This happened to me with my crank style swiss like cheapo.I trim the riser off of a needle bar nipple,so it was just as high as the thickness of the rubber foot. then i put a reg nupple on above it. With raising the back end of the needle bar just a smidge,i didnt have to put much of a bend on my needles at all,and it killed the ink travelling up the tube problem. Dont know if it would work on a dragonfly,but it might be worht a shot.

[Alie K]

Thank you all for the info in this thread.

I got my Dragonfly the other day and was waiting for a regular to come in to try it on ( didn't want to try it on a walk in in case I had problems with my first try with it ).
One of my clients with a ongoing sleeve piece came in and was game for me to try out my new machine.
Started off black shading and using a 50/50 wash and was loving life.:D
Next , time for some color dipped in some dark blue ( PermaPro/Unique ) and noticed in a few secs that I had ink creepin' up the bar :confused: .
I had skimmed this thread along with a few others while waiting for my Dragonfly to show up. And remembered a few things from it.
Unbagged machine , checked bar tensioner didn't seem too tight ( Turned till it made contact with bar and then a little less than a quarter turn more to snug it down a bit ).
Also added a little distilled water to the ink and even got a new needle and tube and still no good. Well I had work to do so I got out one of my coil machines to finish the session.
Tomorrow is my day off and if the missus "Honey do" list ain't too bad I'm gonna head over to the shop and try out some of the things in this thread to see if I can get a handle on things.



How much do you bend your needlebar? Maybe there is too much bend on it?

[fkirons]

Try bending the needle stack as well and just a slight bend on the bar. This will give you a much more steady performance. Some times when you bend the needle bar too much the needle stack tends to pop a bit creating the splatter.
Try to keep the bend as close to the tip of the bar and not in the center of the bar.
This applies the same way with coil machines

[Mr.Taboo]

Ok went in and tried some of the suggestions you folks gave and it seems to be runnin' nice.
Thought about putting a clipped nipple ( geez that sounds horrid ) under a regular one to raise the loop end a bit but thought that might screw with the tension roller so decided against it.
I may have been bending the bar too much I'm not sure but in any case I took fkirons advice and bent it nearer the tip.
Also backed down the power too.
I rolled up a paper towel real tight to run it on and got out PremaPro Sumi Black Liner ( watery ) , Fusion Melon Red ( medium thickness ) , and PermaPro Texas Rebel Blue ( very thick ).
Dipped and ran from thin to thick one at a time running on the towel in between and rinsing , tilting the machine this way and that to mimic tattooing hand motions.
Dipped from one to another to simulate color blending and everything worked fine.
So it seems like I've got it figured out , still want to use it on a regular once or twice more before I put it in general service.
Thank you all for your help and advice.:D