Cheyenne and their patents

[peezie]

This topic is a spinoff from a different post and was brought up to continue this conversation. Original topic is here http://www.rotarytattoo.com/showthread.php/8341-LOD-in-action-with-Icube-and-hawk-Powersupply-amp-t-tech-hawk-carts/page2

[peezie]

The only thing that is the same is the top out side area that locks in place-everything else is different. It's kind of like the first company that invented any in this world-should they own all rights of variations for all time to come? True, it is wrong to steal a company's name, total product likeness and sell it as a complete clone. But were would we be with out progress- Any time you see any type of tattoo machine.Ideas were used from other things done before in manufacturing etc. Also most people use t-tech because they work better-they are soldered and grouped more like standard tattoo needle/bars. The hawk ones are more like cosmetic style were they are set in plastic and grouped tight with small pins. The bottom line is a cart paired with a disposable tube is common sense progress. If you have one machine that;s easy to clean paired with one throw away tube and a few needle carts-you min the contamination and lower bio waste. Cheyenne took the idea of putting a object into another and twisting to lock into place-this has been done before in guns and other products-they did not invent that idea. And the idea of putting needles in a group to tattoo with has also been done before. THey way I see it is they only own rights to exact copies-as they paired ideas all ready used and invented to make a different product.


Not for all time to come. In the USA it's 20 years. As for TTECH being better, that is just your opinion and I'm sure many other peoples opinion, but the bottom line is that it is still just an opinion as I know a lot of people will disagree also. And as for the twist lock, I don't doubt that there are other things in this world that twist and lock, but the issue is how the twist and lock is achieved and for what purpose. This twist lock serves a purpose and has a specific function besides locking something into place. It sets needle depth also. If you think the only protection they have is the rights to exact copies then I think you really need to research patents and how they work. This would be true if cheyenne held only a design patent. The patents they hold are utility patents. If TTECH had a different locking mechanism and also were incompatible with cheyenne machines then I wouldnt view it as a knockoff. I'm all for progress. Just don't infringe on patents. When cheyennes 20 years is up, knock yourself out. Until then, change the back part of your catridge and don't make them compatible with their machines. Simple.

[peezie]

The cartridge system is not a patent or invention of cheyenne ..this system is used since years in the cosmetic industrie (permanent makeup) and a lot of builder used this cartridge system. The only think is cheyenne is the first that bring this to the tattoo world ... so ttech copy nothing ,cheyenne has only a patent for the membran because this technic is used since years by others.
No one is saying you can't make a cartridge system. I have a machine with a catridge system that is older than 20 years. The whole back part of TTECH's is a complete ripoff of cheyenne and were marketed to cheyenne users since the beginning. They were basically piggy backing off cheyennes success. If they changed the back part of their cartridge and made them incompatible with cheyenne machines then I wouldn't view them as ripoffs. If anyone thinks cheyenne don't deserve to have their patents has every right to dispute it in a court of law. Until then, someone at the USPTO felt they deserved their patents.

[artoftatt2]

The twist lock is found on many things... I have it on a few cafe bikes for the gas lid... Also a few other vintage things I own.. Their is also a few tubes I have that have removable tips that are the same from the late 80s that are metal.. I don't believe they invented it but they did patent it.. I use both cartridges but I do see the differences between each ..

[slicksteel]

ditto on that ^^.-I do now about patents and yes I realize that they paid the money and took other peoples ideas to make their product and to lock it up with patents etc. And they have the money to enforce it in a court of law. I dont agree with it as there is tons of people that have invented stuff and just because they dont have a shit load of money to pay someone they don't get any were with it and don't have the ability to sue everyone. We all know of a some companies that did that and it caught up with them. Cheyenne them shelf seen how popular the t-tech grips were and stole that idea. All I see is Cheyenne is a big company that does not even tattoo and just jumped on the wagon as they had the money to do so and combined ideas that were all ready in place such as using a directdrive machine with a rod.That idea was done years ago by alot of uk machines. I would say the only original part of it would be the grip it shelf which was poorly made at first. Infact the depth of the machine at first was very shallow/weak, yet they tried to market it to tattooers as a all in one that was better then any thing out there-it was only after getting enfo from tattooers that there machine was made to work better in all aspects of tattooing.

[artoftatt2]

Hey slick I agree with ya on this one!

[tattoo4satan]

so am I reading this correctly they really didn't invent anything, they just had the money to patent it? If that's true whats the point of even arguing it.

[artoftatt2]

Their isint a point really.. That type of system has been around for a long time... It would be like someone trying to patent how they wrap coils..

[peezie]

I have to admit, I have no firsthand knowledge about cheyenne or ttech so I have to rely on info that I can verify. I know that cheyenne has been operating years before TTECH which is a fact. TTECH has been around since end of 2010 according to canada.gc.ca website I found. Cheyenne has been operating before 2008 according to forum posts on other websites. Improvements to existing ideas can be patented as long as ideas are not patented already. With that being said, what evidence do you have that they stole these ideas? Just asking as I am curious myself. Not saying your lying or anything. Can you send me links to any pictures of tattoo machines with push rods from the UK or anywhere? Just curious to check out who cheyenne copied from or who you think they copied from. I don't know if anybody at cheyenne tattoos or not so I can't say otherwise, but that has nothing to do with their right to own these patents. In some peoples eyes, yea, I know they wont respect that. If that's the case, then you should be mentioning Ray of neotat and tattooed pirate as well. They make a living and don't tattoo themselves and a bunch of other builders do the same. They make kickass products according to people on here though. Not attacking you Slick so don't take this post the wrong way. Just need you to shed some more light on the subject as I currently view TTECHs as ripoffs and I do hope you can change my view on it. For the record though, I don't own any cheyenne products.

[peezie]

Their isint a point really.. That type of system has been around for a long time... It would be like someone trying to patent how they wrap coils..

The manner in which something is manufactured can be patented also. Just so you know.

[CajunDave]

i havent tried ttech carts but i was told by a few different tattooers that ink can get sucked up into the grip and into your drive and ruin your machine.

[artoftatt2]

I think that this is going to be a thread full of opinions and pointless arguments that are really meaningless. I'm gonna go back to painting as I don't have time get into it over this.. And the fact that I should prolly spend my free time doing art rather than worrying about shit that doesn't involve me...

[Shawn]

Nouveau Contour is a per manent cosmetic company that sells a cartridge with a membrane and made exactly like hawks carts. They have a patent on theirs as well. Why isn't cheyenne sueing them. My wife uses these and I have taken several apart. Made exactly like hawk carts.

[slicksteel]

Shawn they are one and the same owned by the large company of shareholders.

[johndameart]

i havent tried ttech carts but i was told by a few different tattooers that ink can get sucked up into the grip and into your drive and ruin your machine.

Hey Dave, I use both, i have yet to have one get sucked up into the tube at all. and its been about 6 months.

[crabink]

the way i look at it..... Cheyenne nailed it so hard that this cartridge technology will become main stream or take at least half of the market... For rotary it makes all the sense in the world.. coils not so much.

That being said.... whoever invented the needle bar was copied to this day... When something revolutionizes an industry to such an extreme degree it will always be copied... improved, manipulated, etc etc....

Cheyenne does have a case... and it they were the same price as t tech.. i would buy Cheyenne all day long.. fact is ... t tech is pretty damn good and 1/3 the price

Cheyeene is wayyyyy overpriced... so fuck em ... if there is one thing that Walmart has taught us is that its a doggy dog world and capitalism is the law of the land.

[OwlsDen]

Nouveau Contour is a per manent cosmetic company that sells a cartridge with a membrane and made exactly like hawks carts. They have a patent on theirs as well. Why isn't cheyenne sueing them. My wife uses these and I have taken several apart. Made exactly like hawk carts.

Now this is the point that I am surprised no one has stumbled upon. Now I can't remember the name of the parent company but is something like DKM or PDK or I dunno. The point is, they are a large cosmetic tattoo equipment manufacture. They own Cheyenne and some lower name brands as well. All of them mostly cosmetic. I believe they have two or three types of cartridges that only fit certain machines. Much like certain razors only fit certain handles. In all seriousness they most likely did invent the cosmetic cartridge and have since adapted it to tattooing.

Cheyenne has a cool system, just not for me. At the end of the day they are a cosmetic company making money off of the tattoo industry. Yes they have the patents, that's what big companies do. Big companies also try and stop innovation in. Markets that they dominate. Just look at all the regulations we have here in Germany. The funny thing is, that it has a lot more regulation on pigments and equipment than most places.

[OwlsDen]

Ok I found the parent company. Mt.Derm.

http://site.mtderm.de/english/

[Shawn]

Well excuse me ! I like both ttech and hawk carts. No need for us to argue about this shit on here. Let these companies take care of their buissness and we can take care of ours Tattooing!! Sorry I tried to stir the shit pot. Have fun wasting your time bickering back and forth I'm gonna go tattoo.

[chris-in-cali]

i havent tried ttech carts but i was told by a few different tattooers that ink can get sucked up into the grip and into your drive and ruin your machine.

in an enclosed system like the hawk...this might be possible.
but with any other rotary in which you can see the drive bar....this would be close to impossible....unless you were a complete idiot...because you could actually see the ink creeping up the bar

i have been using t-tech for about 6 months now....i haven't had a single problem.....i haven't even had any ink leak in any way...not even into the grip.

[serial1313]

the way i look at it..... Cheyenne nailed it so hard that this cartridge technology will become main stream or take at least half of the market... For rotary it makes all the sense in the world.. coils not so much.

That being said.... whoever invented the needle bar was copied to this day... When something revolutionizes an industry to such an extreme degree it will always be copied... improved, manipulated, etc etc....

Cheyenne does have a case... and it they were the same price as t tech.. i would buy Cheyenne all day long.. fact is ... t tech is pretty damn good and 1/3 the price

Cheyeene is wayyyyy overpriced... so fuck em ... if there is one thing that Walmart has taught us is that its a doggy dog world and capitalism is the law of the land. I don't have a dog in this fight (no pun intended) because I don't use cartridges but, "a doggy dog world"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey0n7fHOwpk is a world that Snoop created. A "dog eat dog world" is what capitalism created. Hahahahah! Sorry, go ahead w/ the discussion.

[slicksteel]

It does seem that cheyenne is bashing t-tech products and saying they are not sterile,poorly made and basily get ink everywere-which people that use them know that is all a lie to get people not to buy them.

[andrewc]

19902

[(Opted Out)]

Yeah mt derm is the parent company, there was a huge thing about them in a tattoo master mag, as far as im concerned fuck em!!! There not tattooists there not her to help our industry just make as much money from ridiculous overpriced cartridges and machines that promote bad hygene! Half the artists using them dont autoclave the grip after every use! Dirty and give nothing to this world just take take take!! I would rather spend £450 on 3 rotaryworks machines and support one of our own dale, who has given tattooing more than he has taken or on an fk iron or spektra and support gaston and use groundbreaking machines made by tattooists for tattooists!

[OwlsDen]

I couldn't agree more Fluff

[johndameart]

agree and agree

[crabink]

So in conclusion... This Cheyenne parent company is not "by tattooists, for tattooists" they are "from profit, for profit". so fuck em. It's settled then.

Make sure that you all email ttech and tell them you want black plastic and want them to update their website daily or at least weekly and get the pics in there.
Explain to them that we want them to evolve into an even better company, because if they start to get emails from us with our support it may light a fire under there ass.

We want black cartridges so that we can all tattoo murdered out with the new FK irons RPG grip, and we want to see pictures of every needle cartridge, even though we already know what they look like. lol

Thread closed!

Peace nuggah, Crab out!

[peezie]

I think TTECH can stand on their own merits (from the feedback I read about them here ) without copying the back part of cheyenne cartridges. TTECH aint owned or run by tattooist by the way. They are chinese owned and operated. The owner Long Xiao used to work for a needle making plant and left to set up shop in Canada. So if you wanna live by tattooist for tattooist, you shouldn't be using TTECHs either. Just my opinion though. Not that it should really matter since the majority of tattooers are all using china made needles. As for Cheyenne, I could give a fuck about them myself. My issue was more with the copying of a patented product which is what this discussion was suppose to be about and not ethical codes of standards. With that being said, TTECH, CHeyenne, or whatever you choose to use, I hold no judgement. Just voicing an opinion for discussion. I knew it was gonna be a one sided argument from the get go as everyone loves their TTECHs.

[OwlsDen]

I am not for either side, I just thought that ( much like you ) people should know the companies behind theses products.

Infringing on a patent is of course wrong. So is feeding off an industry. Needles and the ethics of them would make for yet another great conversation. Patents seem loaded these days. Seems as if companies use patents to try and keep innovation to a minimum. ( look at Samsung Vs Apple a big drawn out pissing match that accomplishes nothing ). The big problem here is brand loyalty, I don't think anyone cares about the patent. I think both companies build the needles in China.

[(Opted Out)]

Yeah i dont use t-tech either!! DONT own a single cartridge machine or adaptor grip!.. BUT cheyenne are bringing slander and trying to slur any competition that use there idea!.. What next sue stylus?.... Sue gaston becuase he made a cartridge adaptor grip?... I agree you should NOT rip other peoples tattoos or equiptment, but saying using t-tech voids your warranty is stupid and claiming they leak and destroy your machine i have never heard a single example of this except a friend of a friend said.... Its just causing rumours. I dont care for how they do business and i think they dont care for our business/industry/lifestyle at all!.. Next we will have price comparason websites for tattoo's..! Fuck them too if they ever exist!!

[fkirons]

As much as I tried to stay away from this subject I couldn't resist to add my opinion.

We all should respect patents. Infringing a patents "acknowledging it" is plain rude and unethical business decision.
Cheyenne does have a patent for their cartridges and their patents should be respected. Now, patents are very tricky and some times by slightly changing a design or function you could patent a whole product of your own. Messed up?? maybe...

I think that T-Tech could have done a better job at designing a cartridge of their own with their own fitting system and gripcompete with a product of their own creation, rather than introducing a cheap version of the Hawk Cartridge, because that's what they are too me.

I think that great ideas should be protected but at the same time there it needs to be some room for others to evolve without crossing the fine line.
I'm sure Cheyenne spent way too much money to allow someone to make profit on their creation. Do I think the membrane situation is a deal breaker?? Well, not when I cannot dispose the tube I use. DO I think Cheyenne has a valid point in here?, of course I do. They took the necessary steps to make their work "theirs"

[Tazman]

Ok let's face it, there will always be design spin offs and improvements. As far as hawk and ttech, ttech saw a market and a need to a hawk alternative that was cheaper and they met that demand. I just could not bring myself to buy hawk carts for that price, especially when I don't have a hawk machine. I like the looks and feel of the ttech grips and they serve their purpose very well. I don't see hawk advertising to all other machine users about converting to hawk grips and carts.

We have bishops, neotats, impacts, and many more slider style machines, every one had to have been inspired by something or someone! If hawk has the quality and the superior design than their customers will stay loyal to the product. If not than ttech is the alternative. I don't think that anyone should have a monopoly on an idea, otherwise we end up with $5 gas prices and a product that can't be regulated by competitors. Competition is what drives the economy.

[fkirons]

Ok let's face it, there will always be design spin offs and improvements. As far as hawk and ttech, ttech saw a market and a need to a hawk alternative that was cheaper and they met that demand. I just could not bring myself to buy hawk carts for that price, especially when I don't have a hawk machine. I like the looks and feel of the ttech grips and they serve their purpose very well. I don't see hawk advertising to all other machine users about converting to hawk grips and carts.

We have bishops, neotats, impacts, and many more slider style machines, every one had to have been inspired by something or someone! If hawk has the quality and the superior design than their customers will stay loyal to the product. If not than ttech is the alternative. I don't think that anyone should have a monopoly on an idea, otherwise we end up with $5 gas prices and a product that can't be regulated by competitors. Competition is what drives the economy.


So basically you are saying that is OK to knock off a product for the sake of a discount??. Search for Spektra Halo on ebay...you can buy them for $39 bucks, I cannot even buy a motor for that money. T-Tech is not an alternative to me, it's an insult to intellectual rights.
I think T- Tech should have design their own system. Change it around and make it completely different. the fact that they did it to fit on a Hawk is a big slap on their faces.
This is not competition, this is ripoff.

[slicksteel]

The bottom line is the whole idea of patents/copy right only holds the poor down and rewards the rich. I believe the world would be better with out any type of patents etc. The pool of ideas would be endless and just as some one would spring of your ideas and use them ,you could to. Progress in all things would be very fast. And you would not lose money infact you would make more money as you would learn from others mistakes and not waste tons of money on R&D as well as others learning from yours. The whole idea of not sharing knowledge and ideas to the rest of the human race is stupid ,greedy & childish. So what if you spent time and money on something-look at as a contribution to the human races pool of knowledge and advancement.



update this was not directed at anyone just in general-

[artoftatt2]

Actually if you look into it cheyenne diddint invent that needle system.. They just copyrighted it.. So does that make them still the ones being slighted?

[crabink]

I would love to use Cheyenne cartridges, but 10 for 30.00? fuck me... would cost me 550.00 a month to use them... and that's a soft 6 cartridges a day estimate

Would love to see Gaston make his own t tech cartridges (loves putting ideas in his head), and make em better and different than Cheyenne to not infringe upon the patent rights and sell em for 1.00 each like t tech.

note to Gaston .. make em 1/4 turn to lock .. black.. 1.00 each

[peezie]

Actually if you look into it cheyenne diddint invent that needle system.. They just copyrighted it.. So does that make them still the ones being slighted?

Hey Art, I'm not saying you're wrong as I don't know what's been out there in regards to needle cartridges. Just curious, if not cheyenne, then who invented the cartridge with a membrane and same back connector that twists to lock? Can you point me in the right direction to look it up? I've yet to see a similar needle cartridge system like cheyennes. Here's a machine that was passed down from my mom that is more than 20 years old (She preferred her coils though which she also passed down). This used to be patented. You can see the patent numbers on the side. International patent.
1992919930
Cartridge system with direct drive plunger that don't fit Cheyenne. Completely different way of doing things though. Has a grip and carts can be pulled on and off on the fly. Cheyennes system is similar but definitely different enough to be patented in the USA.

[slicksteel]

Actually if you look into it cheyenne diddint invent that needle system.. They just copyrighted it.. So does that make them still the ones being slighted?
Tru-that is what i am saying if companies have the money they can take other people's ideas and copyright them and pretend they were theirs.

[artoftatt2]

It's been years since I've seen it but it was the same twist lock cartridge.. I'm not a huge fan of cheyenne considering the fact that they don't care about tattooers.. Although I do use their products hopefully ill be all flite soon.. But I deff don't see anyone bad mouthing the guys that came out with grips for the cartridges after cheyenne already had a grip.. I know of at least four companies stepping on their toes over that one and its just the same...

[artoftatt2]

And personally I don't give a shit... I use whatever helps me feed my kids and do better tattoos.. I live in the USA , our forefathers stole everything to build this country. I don't see people getting upset about that.. Yet everyone finds time to get upset over a knock off or other stupid shit.. Who cares.. If you make something good and are a good person ill buy your product if its worth a fuck.. If you are a shit bag and point fingers and worry about the wrong things that's less time you have to better your self or company.. This isint targeted toward any one... Trust me I will tell anyone I have an issue with point blank.. Rant over

[OwlsDen]

Well maybe some good research should be done. Similar concepts have expire dates for monopoly. For example Razors have generic replacements after "x" years. There is some loophole for this as to create a free market. I believe it is 5 years but I haven't looked.

Also when Cheyenne ( Mt.Derm let's be honest ) allowed others to use the cartridge lock in their grips ( Inkjecta and others ) or even screw adapters for the official hawk grip, they are creating a standard. Once you establish a product as a standard you must fairly license that patent to people.

The patent work is so so convoluted, the only thing that I know it doesn't serve is the consumer. Without choice in a market there is no evolution of products. The hawk carts still don't come with normal needles and they have been out for at least 6 years now.

Granted I am not a patent expert or a lawyer, so don't take this as fact. Only opinionated, observation.

[aurelien]

But from what I understood ttech use different needles right ? For exemple i dislike bugpins, but ttech makes cartridges in #12 no ? long tapers and all that ? I have only used hawk cartridges when i had one, but I didn't care much for their liners at all. Does it make ok though since cheyenne isn't offering this product and no one else is ? Or should we better use another machine just for a special configuration, and maybe see their sales drop ? I m just wondering really, no sarcasm

[OwlsDen]

But from what I understood ttech use different needles right ? For exemple i dislike bugpins, but ttech makes cartridges in #12 no ? long tapers and all that ? I have only used hawk cartridges when i had one, but I didn't care much for their liners at all. Does it make ok though since cheyenne isn't offering this product and no one else is ? Or should we better use another machine just for a special configuration, and maybe see their sales drop ? I m just wondering really, no sarcasm



That is the same point I was making about they want the market to stay how it is. They don't care about making normal needles, they don't tattoo. Bug pins are the standard for cosmetic tattooing ( my understanding ) and that is what they know. They Don't care that T-Tech offers options that they don't.

[aurelien]

oops yeah we posted at the same time ^^

[slicksteel]

But from what I understood ttech use different needles right ? For exemple i dislike bugpins, but ttech makes cartridges in #12 no ? long tapers and all that ? I have only used hawk cartridges when i had one, but I didn't care much for their liners at all. Does it make ok though since cheyenne isn't offering this product and no one else is ? Or should we better use another machine just for a special configuration, and maybe see their sales drop ? I m just wondering really, no sarcasm
For sure the use of t-tech for hawks is keeping the sales of the machines/tubes up-infact one of the things most people did not like was the carts at first which kept the machine sales down-lol t-tech has done them a favor really.

[OwlsDen]

For sure the use of t-tech for hawks is keeping the sales of the machines/tubes up-infact one of the things most people did not like was the carts at first which kept the machine sales down-lol t-tech has done them a favor really.

Man! when you are right, you are so right!

[peezie]

Mike has a patent on the centri. This machine has a lot of room for improvement. I can make a completely different looking machine with the same principles as the centri and also offer it at a better price point. You, as a consumer, would definitely benefit from this. He's not a big company either and has yet to go into production. Would it be a ripoff if I used his technology and expanded upon it? Definitely would be taking food out of his and his family's mouth. I personally don't have any cartridge machines or setup and wont support a product that fits cheyenne carts. Now that's just me. This topic has definitely hit a nerve with some of you. As much as I'd like to give my opinion on points that have been brought up, it seems further opinion from me will benefit no one at this point. I have respect for everyone here regardless of who you support whether it be cheyenne or TTECH. With that said, feel free to continue the conversation, but try to respect each others opinions.

[johndameart]

You have a valid point, the only thing is that I do use the cartidge system, plan on buying the one from fkirons also, but thats just my personal opinion on me liking them, a lot of people dont like the behind the scene stuff such between cheyenne and ttech but I use whats good for me.

[slicksteel]

Actually he did take it from aerospace tech and applied it to tattooing-and yes is a great guy and has a patent for his machine. But if someone can make a better more reliable model and it does not look like a exact clone while ripping the same makers name/description I dont see anything wrong with it.-It's called progress.Now if its no better or actually runs worse-this of course is not progress.I think if works and functions better and is a better product it would be stupid not to bring it to the table. Just as much as he has taken what others have come up with before him and not paid for it. So should it be allowed to be shared to better the idea behind it...

[peezie]

Actually he did take it from aerospace tech and applied it to tattooing-and yes is a great guy and has a patent for his machine. But if someone can make a better more reliable model and it does not look like a exact clone while ripping the same makers name/description I dont see anything wrong with it.-It's called progress.Now if its no better or actually runs worse-this of course is not progress.I think if works and functions better and is a better product it would be stupid not to bring it to the table. Just as much as he has taken what others have come up with before him and not paid for it. So should it be allowed to be shared to better the idea behind it...Ok, this will be my one last post for this topic lol. Sorry, couldn't resist. I guess it's because I build machines myself that I see things the way I do. As an artist, I would love to do that to have another kickass machine with no flaws. As a builder, I wouldn't be able to do that to Mike. He deserves to make his money off his invention regardless of where or how he was inspired to make his machine. Improvements to ideas can be patented so long as those ideas being improved upon aren't already patented. The people that came up with the ideas he's building upon have had time to make their money. Now is his time. I myself, am gonna respect that. The proper thing for me to do would be to license it from him and than improve upon it and then we both make money. If I did it any other way, it would be stealing. Patents are only granted to the specific industry to which you applied for. Someone can be inspired by the centri and apply the technology to fishing or biking or whatever and get a patent for it. With that said, as a consumer, I do understand where you're coming from and I do respect that. You wont be hearing me tell anyone not to buy TTECHs (and I haven't throughout this whole time) . I'm just speaking for myself. It's not my place to tell anyone to do anything. I hope you guys continue this conversation with respect to each other.

[fkirons]

It's been years since I've seen it but it was the same twist lock cartridge.. I'm not a huge fan of cheyenne considering the fact that they don't care about tattooers.. Although I do use their products hopefully ill be all flite soon.. But I deff don't see anyone bad mouthing the guys that came out with grips for the cartridges after cheyenne already had a grip.. I know of at least four companies stepping on their toes over that one and its just the same...

You need a hug.

[slicksteel]

Hey peezie maybe you and mike should get to gether and knock out a sick machine based of his style. That would be sweet. You have a point and I have been saying on here all along the way to do is to lic your product out to others like guitar makers do to a certain set of standards/service and set prices-that way there can be a profit on both end's instead of the china boys just doing blant rips. If there was lower priced less frills models but still made well -not very many would buy the clones as you could get a lic well made version with service if your short on cash.;)

[artoftatt2]

No hugs needed... Nothing but love for ya gaston.. I don't hate on anyone trying to make a dollar.

[aurelien]

Mike has a patent on the centri. This machine has a lot of room for improvement. I can make a completely different looking machine with the same principles as the centri and also offer it at a better price point. You, as a consumer, would definitely benefit from this. He's not a big company either and has yet to go into production. Would it be a ripoff if I used his technology and expanded upon it? Definitely would be taking food out of his and his family's mouth. I personally don't have any cartridge machines or setup and wont support a product that fits cheyenne carts. Now that's just me. This topic has definitely hit a nerve with some of you. As much as I'd like to give my opinion on points that have been brought up, it seems further opinion from me will benefit no one at this point. I have respect for everyone here regardless of who you support whether it be cheyenne or TTECH. With that said, feel free to continue the conversation, but try to respect each others opinions.

I may be wrong but isn't what stigma did with the swashplate system ?

[thejackco]

I feel that t-tech has helped in some way to the selling of some "cheyennes" cause it would be harder to consider buying a system limited to just their expensive cartridges.

[tattoosbymikemiller]

you could call it piggy backing. but one thing, i know a lot of artists that wouldn't have even considered buying the hawk if they had to pay 3$ a cartridge. but i do agree patents are patents.

[S_Trofatter]

there are patents and then international patents, then there is the fact that you could roll an international patent up into a lead pipe and beat it over the head of a chinese manufacturer till his brains oozed out, and it wouldnt stop the next chinese manufacturer from stepping into his place. While we rely on cheap labor to keep costs low there is absolutely no effective way to punish the chinese for intellectual theft. It wont stop until they no longer manufacter the bulk of our mass produced goods.

[serial1313]

WORD!

[cagelavey]

all hail t-tech!! lol

[Caleb's Addiction]

I just wanna do good tattoos with a machine I don't have to fuck with constantly!!!! I like my Cheyenne machines and I like my ttech carts because I don't have to go broke. Not all of us are booked out for years and have a $1000 minimum!!!


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[cagelavey]

none of it really matters, ttech isn't going anywhere, they paved the way for a cheaper cart and have now made the price of their carts the standard for any carts that are released in the future. cheyennes panties got all in a wad because they saw their monopoly on the cart industry slipping from their hands. their reaction to this issue was, lets slander ttechs product with propaganda fueled videos, refuse warranties on any hawk machines if they were used with ttech carts claiming " the ink would run up the grip into the machine body and destroy the motor". utter and complete bullshit by the way. like ray from neo said, cheyennes parent company tries to sell cart driven cosmetic tattoo machines in the excess of 5,000.00 in the guise of the machines being a medical certified equipment! so before Cheyenne decided to infiltrate our "tattoo industry" yet again with more overpriced certified equipment, granted not in the same absurd ballpark of their medical tattoo machines, they were already robbing people. we are just the latest victims of their corporate greed. so when Cheyenne couldn't push ttech out with an absurd law suit, they decide well if we cant beat them and our cart sells are not what they were when we monopolized the industry, we might as well deliver a cheaper cart, which is their right. my point is no matter how big a company is and no matter how great a companies bankroll is, their money and power doesn't mean they will always win. ttech showed the world you can create a quality cartridge at an affordable price, and in doing so they pissed off a conglomerate who then tried to crush them. in the end they failed, and ttech showed us that david could really slay goliath. I believe their is a valuable lesson to be taken from that. you better recamothafuckinize! lol.

[MFresh]

I feel that t-tech has helped in some way to the selling of some "cheyennes" cause it would be harder to consider buying a system limited to just their expensive cartridges.

This is very true, I and a few others I know, bought the Thunder and pu2........which I or they would have never done if Ttech doesnt come out with a more affordable cartridge.

[No Iron Machines]

CHEYENNE just come out with a LOW COST CARTRIDGE series, similar T-TECH

did u guys have seen yet ???

[blackdeath]

With a few disposables in the works, hopefully they start producing better and/or cheaper grips too.

[hellraiser6662]

Inkjecta are endorsing a new cartridge! I saw it on there instagram I tagged fkiron and bishop in the post because it was at the same time as there announcement about the disposable grip, got myself blocked from inkjectas instagram haha fuck did I care oh no. Only thing is I bought a flite V2 a day before and I was hoping it was a shit machine when it arrived but no it's a great machine! ! ! Bloody typical.

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[blackdeath]

Inkjecta are endorsing a new cartridge! I saw it on there instagram I tagged fkiron and bishop in the post because it was at the same time as there announcement about the disposable grip, got myself blocked from inkjectas instagram haha fuck did I care oh no. Only thing is I bought a flite V2 a day before and I was hoping it was a shit machine when it arrived but no it's a great machine! ! ! Bloody typical.

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http://www.rotarytattoo.com/showthread.php/10037-New-Hawk-carts!!

[hellraiser6662]

Not on here for a few days and not being able to see on inkjecta instagram as being blocked things have moved on, so inkjecta are in bed with hawk then! Me and Gaston was talking about this at the London convention interesting conversation! Now things are more clearer from the first pic I saw before the ban just before London convention. The thought of inkjecta doing there own needles was good but now it's still hawk, makes it still a two horse race between t-tech & hawk we need a wild card to pop its head in haha

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[fkirons]

Inkjecta are endorsing a new cartridge! I saw it on there instagram I tagged fkiron and bishop in the post because it was at the same time as there announcement about the disposable grip, got myself blocked from inkjectas instagram haha fuck did I care oh no. Only thing is I bought a flite V2 a day before and I was hoping it was a shit machine when it arrived but no it's a great machine! ! ! Bloody typical.

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why would you be blocked? for tagging us?

[hellraiser6662]

Who knows? But it's no great deal in my eyes. Like we talked about at the London convention, he sounds a little up his own arse! ! But hay I don't care.

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