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For me a light machine is everything. Obviosly with the design of anything you shouldn't sacrifice quality to save weight. That is why I use N2's (36 grams) & Dragonfly's (80 grams). I am curious about other rotary machines & the weight vs. quality. Does anyone have or know of machines that are lightweight or has info to contribute?:)
Greetings, Here at the www.tattooedpirate.com we strive for quality and precision engineering. Our Rapier 1-2 weigh in at 2.5 ounces and have 2 mNm of torque [lets put it this way at the 12 volts we tattooed sheetrock] at half speed [6 volts] you can power a 15 mag with ease. We also have the spring dampener to cushion the needle blow to the skin. We also have a pneaumatic machine that is pretty sweet to use. I am a simple is better than a bunch of parts. [ Colt 1911] The Rapier consists of 15 parts total and is oil free, no luricating needed. When we update parts all can be used on all of our machines. We strive to make a better machine for the artist in all of us.
I would like to give this thread a bump, I am very interested in this very topic. IMO, for detailed work the lighter the better, for running big mags a little weight might be in order to steady the work. I think lighter machines give a much more detailed interaction with the skin and force your hand to control the penetration rather than just using the weight of the machine. I am suprised that light machines are appreciated by a minority of the artists I interact with. I can build some very light machines that perform as good as anything but the medium/heavy machines will sell out every time. I am wide open to any input regarding this topic. To get to the point of this thread, high quality machines can be very light, they just have a higher material cost to build.
The swashdrives are made from some sorta plastic stuff, Im too lazy to check what its actually called but it makes them very light, my average Saturday is about 14 - 16 hrs and since I started using them I have stop getting a sore wrist. I also use the Neo but only for shorter jobs as they are a lot heavier.
Geeze Im starting to sound like an Advert for Swashdrive, Ill have to hit them up for a discount!!
I agree with you, Brian. I enjoy a lighter machine. Even if I am using a coil machine, I prefer light ones. There are so many shops switching to disposables, and I find that I NEED a lighter machine to work with them.
i do not think weight factors into the quality equation . i have had heavy and light machines that were very well made with quality parts , both coil and rotary . i think it comes down more to design and balance . if a machine is balanced correctly you can get away with a little more weight without causing hand fatigue and in contrast if a machine is too light it is almost like you have to hold the needles in the skin which may not affect the sore or injured hand problems you already have but can cause others
The only thing I'm sure of is that heavier machines take a toll on your arms and hands faster.
I have a bit of a dilemma other than that, to me it seems that unlike a traditional coil machine you actually need to exert pressure with a rotary to get the needles to enter the skin but, in saying that the machines I have are super light, weighing almost 1/3 my old coils. So, now I'm wondering if the lack of weight has anything to do with it or if its just me imagining things?
Thoughts anyone?
I think if you have a light weight machine that is balanced you can get more detail work but for big japanese work i would go with a meduim one. Or simply use like a 5/8 Stainless steel on your light one (rotary)with rubber grip or 7/8 stainless with rubbergrip for larger mags or realy heavy linework. These sizes paired with the rubbergrips are not to big but do add a bit of weight for balance and needle pentration and absorb vibrations.
I do like to use bigger grip light disposables barrels thoe if i am trying to do some type of portrait work where i dont want a hard line or heavy shading and i want to actually have to push it in with my hand a bit to have the most control but that can become tiresome afterawile. I do thing that there will eventually there will be laws were we will all have to use disposables thoe or you will have to moniter serilizing so much with daily printouts/ weekly checks and high inspection fees, that it will not be cost effective. But i am sure the industry will just make a disposable tube with maybe sometype of ss in it to add weight.
Limey i think your are also used to the needles being slaped in with more speed with a coil machine.
A rotary tends to push the needle at the same speed the whole time that it is intering the skin. It is kind of like how bruce lee would put it "with speed comes power". so a coil is going to have more power.I think most people think that because most rotarys do not backup up when the needle enters the skin that equals power. All that is a rigid system that allways little backup(give) except for the gromment and a bit of play in the linkage system.Now when have rotary machine that are touted as being coil like. The closet thing to that is when you have real swissmade or stealh copy type machines that has a abar with a spring attached to it. It is going to run similer to a coil machine as it has some backup(give) to the thrust of the needle which can be very with differnent guages of springs.But you are still not going to get the same velocity as a coil machine as a abar on a coil machine is free floating on the needle side which allows for actual snap back and forth.So to me to it does feel like you have to push the needles. When infact you are haveing to maintain the first hand held postion of the machine and needles relative to the angle of the skin.This is so the needle bar does not actualy push the machine back from the skin.
I do notice I have to hold the machine down more when i use my swashdrive gen 5 or neo tat then the rapiers as the rapiers have some backup that lets them give a bit before it will push back against the machine and by that time usally the needles have went into the skin enough to punture the skin and allow some capillary action that will suck the ink in. Now if you think about it, the neotat has abit of weight to compared to one of the lighter swash drives so it will actually feel like you do not have to push it in as the weight is helping maintaing the needle postion you first held to the skin.
Now we do have the new swashdrive which does have a flexie clip that is achored at the back end to maintain a rigid area(which all so has a top boss cage to help with upword pressure applied to the motor shaft)so that we get a similier flex as a coils machines spring Also they have used faster same torque motors then the older gens to get that added velocity power you need to punture the skin easyer.I think haveing a lighter machine is more verstile as you can simiply add more weight to it via barrels and grips.But a heavy machine you can not make lighter.
Now if your floating the needle and not letting the barrel tip touch the skin heavy weighted machine becomes a burden as you have to maintain the exact needle with alot of weight in your hand.So i feel that a lighter machine like a older swash are swissmade(stealth) will work better for soft color blending or bng if you use it with a lightweight barrel(aluminuim or throwaway) and just let the machines natural frame push back work.(self controled give).
I hope this will help somebody if not just chalk it up as B.S.
That is a good way of explaining how it works for you.
Some see the science and physics of tattooing and others see it as magic or a parlor trick. Your post sums it up a lot of good info! Thanks for posting it! and hey if someone else thinks its bullshit they just have a different way of looking at things. :)
Nice post Michael, I spent a fair part of my life doing coastal erosion analysis (boring applied physics really) so every now and then I get a bit sidetracked and have to try and break stuff down into numbers and weight is one of those things that's an odd one to factor in... OK back to reality for me :)
I do think sometimes i over analysis things a bit and just as they say should "Let it flow baby" I also have face the reality that the customer don't give squat about how I tattoo as long as it looks great ,heals right and dont hurt much. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
i totaly aggree on this with brian
i can say to that, that high-end machining simply just cost's more then cutting , brazing sanding and painting something
that goes for everything and not just tattoomachines ;)
for instance the strength differance between 7075 t6 material and Steel is allmost none
yet it ways less then a third it's weight ...
brass looks cool polished , yet it weighs more then steel
my creation weighs a little over 74grams
all parts are made from aircraft grade materials and are build to last
however you like it , there's also an even lighter version that weighs 64.6grams
this is made from Delrin plastic material
soon mister Richie and jimmie wil get one to try out , and give their thaughts on
so that being said
I use mostly coils and I actually dislike machines that are to light. Especially for lining I need a little bit of weight to stabilize my hand and keep certain motions going the heavier weight helps keep things more consistent. I have an Aaron Cain liner that is 6 and something ounces just a we bit light for my taste. Mid sevens are perfect. As far as a shader goes Light weight is awesome but anything lighter then 4 ounces seems pointless, I cant imagine my hand ever getting tired with something that light. I wish I could find a decent light coil shader but havnt found any luck. Still kinda want to try the fk alluminum ones.
have you tried fk irons shaders/color packers? These are my favorites for shaders in a coil.
http://www.fkirons.com/shop/al13-gal...xie-ii-heaven/
and 4.5 ounces, love it.
Its more of a balance thing for me. I like a light machine so i can slap a ss grip on a disposable tube. This throws the weight right where your hand is. Seems like the vibration is absorbed by the plastic tube?? Btw the rapiers are great thats all i really use aside from the some halo I occasionally set up.
yeah i did the disposable tube with ss grip for a while, a buddy of mine in my home town in austin was using them and turned me on to them, but then i just went all disposable, with the fk irons coils, can't beat a 1.25 disposable with those. perfect balance, imo. :) same for the halo.
The swashdrive whip and hyper v2 are both perfect weight! Neotat even at 4oz, seems heavy when used with disposables... Imo
neo tat vivace did seem a bit back heavy with diposables. i agree
Yeah i dont know why, maybe the wip motor is at the front but neotat motor is in the middle?..
yeah it doesnt have that counter balance, also, the motor in the neo vivace is fairly large. not good counter weight, when using disposables, i loved how it performed, just hated feeling like i was using a large coil machine.