Not digging the whip.

Just picked up a whip a few days ago and I have found even with the hard clip set at its stiffest setting, is just to soft for me. Its funny because the more I use rotaries especially the fancier more expensive ones. the more I find I really just want direct strike. I have played with almost all of the machines on the market and the ones that are adjustable almost always end up on the hardest setting. I realize this all comes down to how the individual artist works, hand speed and what not, and my opinion really doesn't matter because its just that, mine. But I was curious to see if rotaries have brought out a cleaner more technical side of your tattooing as well? Like for instance sort of forcing you to learn how to put ink in the right way the first time. Don't get me wrong I can appreciate give in a machine but it has to have some punch behind it. The specific and centri are the first that come to mind as far as a nice strike that can back off a little but still deliver pigment and not just poke unnecessary holes.

hey josh what are you liking the most ive never tried any that have give, closest thing to give is a stealth that backs off a bit do to a weaker motor, which is great for black and grey

I agree Josh, my favourite rotaries so far are ones without give. I love my Mike Metaxa direct drive machine, although it's not linear. A lot of artists have criticized the awkwardness of the German Evolution machine but the smoothness in my black and grey has increased since using it. I also love my Rotaryworks, again they're no give machines. I've heard artists state that rotaries cause more skin trauma but that's not what i've seen. I think the ink goes in more efficiently using a rotary so the tattoo gets done more efficiently which causes the customer less pain and for less time.

Im absolutely loving the whip. Matter of fact, its all I use now. I did use dragonflies and rapiers, but I just cant dig the spring-driven give.

I've never used any direct drivers.

I have heard mostly good things about the whip. like I mentioned each artist has there own way of working. I am familiar with your work Tommy and its obviously working for you. I just felt like it was bouncing off the skin more than actually tattooing efficiently. I suppose I could get used to it and it would eventually change my hand speed and way of working. I will probably trade it for something with more punch.

I also own a whip and find it really nice for round shader needles.what i noticed that rotaryes with give are very round shader friendly,and when it comes to magnums i like just a small amount of give or no give at all

Interesting Otto, I just started experimenting with round groupings such as a loose 7 or a loose 3. Very different for me but fast heals and incredible saturation. Maybe I will give the whip another try on something smaller than a 15 mag.

I don t know if you guys noticed that the whip,on the hard set of the clip it dosen t hit harder just the amount of give is not that big,actualy it felt smoother for me.on the soft set of the clip the machine has more punch..

I would think that way to. As I have my coil colorpacker set like that,they have a long front slinder spring that has a nice bow to it. I would think the soft clip would flex the same at higher volts -whiping the head down wich would work better for popping the thicker colors in.We all know speed+distance something that is slung on a anchored point will get more of smooth stroke to it much like a shock assembly. I would thing the hard clip set in the middle would work good for large lining/ standard bng give shading and at the hardest setting for fast smaller liners and bng shading were you ride off the needle tip with the tube tip touching the skin.

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Originally Posted by otto

I also own a whip and find it really nice for round shader needles.what i noticed that rotaryes with give are very round shader friendly,and when it comes to magnums i like just a small amount of give or no give at all

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I would think it works better with rounds as they require less pressure to push them in compared to a mag. most people use to much powerand not enough give with rounds and they chew up the skin.
I Love your work otto you truly are a master in tattoo technique and art composition.
Have you ever thought of makeing a dvd teaching your rotary technique I am sure it would sell well and help other artists.

I think you are right about the r.shaders michael,and about the video don t know,i consider that i still have a lot to learn in both areas, but hey , thanks for the nice words anyway.

I like the no-give rotarys personally...I switched to rotary because i wanted a very consistent machine that didn't need tinkering with. I get exactly that with the neo-tat. I think once you start adding all of the extra features to control hit strength etc. you kind of go back to the whole tinkering approach to get the machine to match your tattooing...which may or may not reinforce any bad habits we've developed over time. The neo-tat has no adjustment other than the voltage on your power unit....this lets me forget about the machine and focus completely on actual technical application of the tattoo...this is a good thing to me...

Hey Joshua, have you used the "Hawk" yet? I've just recently purchased one and I could see you getting the feel for it really fast. Just a thought.

I like machines with no give too. In fact I wish the give wasn't a must these days! lol
You can always reverse the effect and use your skin as give, less hand pressure, more feel for the skin. I think where is when light rotaries come to play. The steadier the machine, the more feel you get for the skin.
This is a general comment not directed to you Josh, there is nothing I can teach you! :D

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Originally Posted by Tcoe13

Hey Joshua, have you used the "Hawk" yet? I've just recently purchased one and I could see you getting the feel for it really fast. Just a thought.

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I have used it once and really like it, I have actually been thinking about trying it again. I take forever to set up. It would be nice to set up so quickly! I just remember the magnums being caught up on the tip guides, Hopefully they have fixed this.

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Originally Posted by JCarlton

I have used it once and really like it, I have actually been thinking about trying it again. I take forever to set up. It would be nice to set up so quickly! I just remember the magnums being caught up on the tip guides, Hopefully they have fixed this.

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i haven't had that issue and i've been using the hell out of it, seems like that issue may have been resolved. i know the hawk people don't like this but I can tell you that the t-tech needle cartridges are pretty nice compared to the "cheyenne" brand. in some instances they're even better. For the price, the quality difference isn't really obvious at least not where it counts, needles have all looked precise and worked beautifully.
For what it's worth I highly recommend it. It really does cut down on set up time and it's so sweet to be able to have so many "machines" set up (via cartridges) without all the bulk and mess of multiple machines. feel like the cartridge system is the wave of the future, man it's sweet.
Ok, now i'm sounding like a salesman, i'm going to shut it now.

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Originally Posted by Tcoe13

i haven't had that issue and i've been using the hell out of it, seems like that issue may have been resolved. i know the hawk people don't like this but I can tell you that the t-tech needle cartridges are pretty nice compared to the "cheyenne" brand. in some instances they're even better. For the price, the quality difference isn't really obvious at least not where it counts, needles have all looked precise and worked beautifully.
For what it's worth I highly recommend it. It really does cut down on set up time and it's so sweet to be able to have so many "machines" set up (via cartridges) without all the bulk and mess of multiple machines. feel like the cartridge system is the wave of the future, man it's sweet.
Ok, now i'm sounding like a salesman, i'm going to shut it now.

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Exactly,since i switch to t-tech system i use almost only my Rotary Works ali machine !
It looks like my other machines will collect dust :-(

I wonder if I used t tech in say a bishop machine if it run just like the hawk. seems logical.

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Originally Posted by JCarlton

I wonder if I used t tech in say a bishop machine if it run just like the hawk. seems logical.

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Don't have a Bishop but the Neotat is pretty similar and you just need to up the voltage a little to compensate for the extra drag/friction caused by the T-Tech system...

[QUOTE=JCarlton;16723]I wonder if I used t tech in say a bishop machine if it run just like the hawk. seems logical.[/QUOTEYou know it does seem like it would. I know the hawk people claim their motor is precisely geared and tuned to run a certain way. If that is true then there would/could be a difference. I'd bargain it's a heck of a slight difference though if at all. Hell it's worth a try, with t-tech you can't lose.

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Originally Posted by Zapp

Exactly,since i switch to t-tech system i use almost only my Rotary Works ali machine !It looks like my other machines will collect dust :-(

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Amen to that brother! Man I love t-tech.

I have used Neos and Stealth with TTech.No real difference to the Hawk/Spirit.The Hawk is very light of course, so weight/balance issues are more of a factor.I prefer using the heavy ttech grips with red rat covers as it puts a nice weight right in your hand and against the skin.I find the hawk too light.As Limey says, you need to add a volt or two to compensate for the extra resistance of the ttech cartridges.The ttech imho is best with Direct Drives or hard hitters with no give (or very little).Given the Bishop is similar to the Neos, i would bet that it would be a great combo.

Thanks guys, I think I will give it a shot. Why would there be more resistance with the ttech vs the hawk? same drive system isn't it? a plunger simply pushes the cartrage spring shaft.

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Originally Posted by JCarlton

Thanks guys, I think I will give it a shot. Why would there be more resistance with the ttech vs the hawk? same drive system isn't it? a plunger simply pushes the cartrage spring shaft.

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http://unimaxsupply.com/tatmch/1hawkwarning.htm

Only posting this link because it shows the two systems dissected. This is in no way a dis to ttech or its users.

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Originally Posted by JCarlton

Thanks guys, I think I will give it a shot. Why would there be more resistance with the ttech vs the hawk? same drive system isn't it? a plunger simply pushes the cartrage spring shaft.

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if using ttech (or hawk cartridges) you will need more volts compared to running a standard needle.For example 9rl needle on a LS Neo i use around 9.5 volts.Ttech 9rl cartridge on LS Neo i use 11 volts.I have found that the hawk cartridges are "stiffer" and therefore need maybe an extra quarter volt compared to the ttech.I have also found that ttech liners are aligned better ( no side to side movement)How much of an issue is the non sealed ttechs?If you autoclave your grips/needle bars what is the problem.Ttech cartridges are sterilized.Cheyenne should stop scare mongering and reduce the prices of their cartridges.

Yeah I am not concerned about the Hawk (Membrane) I would rather buy an actual grip I can autoclave. Thanks for the info Dave.

http://www.*******************/goods.php?id=446 they got cartridges 50 for about $30 lol wonder if they got the membrane can't imagine 1/5 of the price of the hawk being quality.

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Originally Posted by GuruJeph

http://www.*******************/goods.php?id=446 they got cartridges 50 for about $30 lol wonder if they got the membrane can't imagine 1/5 of the price of the hawk being quality.

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That company went as far as knocking off Eikon's website not just many of their products. Would be cautious of ordering those tips as they could be a big failure. The T-Tech can be argued that its a knock off of the Hawk system but it has at least proven its self. Loads of happy T-tech users on here.

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Originally Posted by JCarlton

Yeah I am not concerned about the Hawk (Membrane) I would rather buy an actual grip I can autoclave. Thanks for the info Dave.

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T-Tech sells a complete system with a few diameters of steel grip and tail. I know a few artists personally that have switched to using steel T-Tech grips and still "soak-scrub-sonic-clave" the grip and tail. They all seem happy with it cutting the "soak-scrub-sonic-clave" time considerably.

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Originally Posted by DiamondDave

if using ttech (or hawk cartridges) you will need more volts compared to running a standard needle.For example 9rl needle on a LS Neo i use around 9.5 volts.Ttech 9rl cartridge on LS Neo i use 11 volts.I have found that the hawk cartridges are "stiffer" and therefore need maybe an extra quarter volt compared to the ttech.I have also found that ttech liners are aligned better ( no side to side movement)How much of an issue is the non sealed ttechs?If you autoclave your grips/needle bars what is the problem.Ttech cartridges are sterilized.Cheyenne should stop scare mongering and reduce the prices of their cartridges.

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On a side note there where reports of people having trouble with linear machines with the T-Tech system and needing to up the volts some to accommodate the added resistance of the rubber band in the ttech. The solution appears to have been addressed by Both NeoTat and Bishop, swapping for a softer spring (the little return spring under the glide) and also making sure your glide has been maintained and correctly lubricated. This may not be an issue for the whip but it may also mean you want to use a harder setting on the clips to accommodate.

[QUOTE=Administrator;16793]That company went as far as knocking off Eikon's website not just many of their products. Would be cautious of ordering those tips as they could be a big failure. The T-Tech can be argued that its a knock off of the Hawk system but it has at least proven its self. Loads of happy T-tech users on here.



Fatcashdaddy got his Chinese hawk in and has pic of the Chinese needles for it. says they look top notch. hmmm
http://www.rotarytattoo.com/showthre...-hawk-in-today

I have a question for you guys. I have really wanted to try the t techs but my shop has gone all disposable and we have no autoclave any more. No piercings at my shop which I dig, just not my thing. Any ways do you guys feel that using the metal grips bagged and wiping with madacide between appointments is enough?

You could use the gripcovers over them that unimax sells but the t-tech do not back seal like the hawks. So I would soak the grips in madacide over night at least.The health dept. in my area accepted that(Althoe I do have an autoclave I want to find a quicker way,if they become soiled then they must be autoclave etc.).So first a wipe down then a min. of a 8hour soak. in a clean container marked just for that(which also must be wiped down and kept clean at all times).Then then they have to be stored in a marked "madacide soaked" pouch & dated then stored in a clean container much like you would do with a autoclave setup.Also you must keep on file when/were the madacide was bought and also keep it clean(lid area etc.)and stored properly.

I'm sure before we know it the Chinese will be knocking off ttechs grips and making them disposable for $.20 each haha

uggg yeah Im just gonna not be able to use them, I dont feel like explaining to the health department why i have a metal grip and no autoclave, sucks

im sure someone will have disposable grips for these needle cartridges before you know it

Mate we have a handful of Super hard clips with no give just come off the production line ... we realize some folk just simply like a harder hit ... send me an e-mail and I will get you squared away with one to try ... [email protected] ... we will have them up to purchase soon .. but just road testing them with folks at the moment .... Let me know if you want to try it.

Just sent an email to Samyo to get the super hard clip, and he sent an email back with in the hour:) he informed me that he would be happy to help. Could not be more stoked, can't wait to get the new clip:)

since using my neo tats for almost evrything for a while. but recentlystarted using my coils again and loving it, and im 100% better with them now. i guess cause i had to learn new techniques to use my neotats. probally the techniques i should of beeen using all along

Never used a whip, but I have found a happy medium on my armature rotaries with the whole dampening thing. I had gone real drastic on it at first, and have got it to a pretty stiff setup now. The way mine are dampened makes them able to push lines of any size with ease, (where is I could barely push anything with a stealth) I like them for whip shading as well, but the portrait guy in my shop is loving his for the soft blending stuff.. set at a 3mm stroke.
as far as solid packing, I tend to go for my direct drives.

I got to run a piece with a pair of Swashdrive Whips...they're quiet as can be and they look all cool and science fiction-y , but I wanted to really see what they might be able to do for me.

holding the machine it felt solid, although i'm not a fan of polymer machine bods...some of the little bits up near the adjustment apparatus seemed a little flimsy ( I'm sure time will tell on that )

Lining: I had to turn up the machine to about 12v ( Monster point EMS 200 clone ). Kingpin tight 5 liner. it settles into the skin nice, and I can run lines much faster than my Neo Tat. I like the give for lining, even though even at the stiffest setting it was still a little too soft. Not really able to play with line weight on a first pass. In my opinion it still doesn't hold a candle to a good colied machine for lining though.

Coloring: After having a pretty positive experience with the whip as a liner I was pretty stoked to see what it could do as a color packer. Ran the machine at between 8-9v ( I'm constantly adjusting my voltage )
Used Mithra 13 Mag Bugpin needle. Ran a small spot nice a deliberate trying to let the machine do the work. Didn't like the saturation...Too much give once again..this time though it really interrupted my work flow...
I love blending color, I don't like to layer it so much as just mix color in the tube and pack color in a solid single pass...After much adjustment I just couldn't find a sweet spot. I was so disappointed in the way it puts the color in the skin, that I threw together my Neo Tat during a smoke break to finish the piece.

I bet it would have been the jam for some black and gray.

Now I've heard many glowing reviews of this machine, but I think if you like solid first pass saturation you may want to look elsewhere. I believe too much was put into the adjustable give slider bar mechanism, and it actually undermines the elegant simplicity of the rotary concept. Kinda turns me off to this whole generation of adjustable rotary machines...I'll stick with no-give systems

I used the whip a few time now, and can tell that the machine likes to be set to 0 with the soft bar and med weight for packing in ink quick and easy!!!! When I slide the adjust bar forward it does not pack it in nearly as fast or as saturated. Same thing with the next stiffer spring, when set to 0 it hits pretty hard and gets it in good, then when I slide it up all the way (the stiffer setting) it hits softer. Very curious to see how the no give at all bar works, might need to see about getting a crank with a 4.0mm or something.