voltages vs speeds

ok so im not sure if this is the right place for this thread but.........i want to talk about machine speeds vs voltages on rotaries of course not realy sure hot these two relate i build coil machines and i know that on a coil if u raise the voltage it makes the machine hit harder not faster to change a coil machines speed u have to use a stiffer front spring since rotaries have no front spring how does this relate i know on a rotary if u increase the voltage it increases the speed but it still hits the same so am i some what in the right ballpark with this theory

i think this is gonna be a kick ass thread

That is one looong sentence. Okay, this is my understanding on this subject. On a rotary, raising the voltage raises both the speed and to some degree the power of the hit(force) because: mass X speed = force , so by increasing the speed of the action the force has to increase relatively.
On a coil machine, you can get more force out of the hit with higher volts but at the cost of sparking which creates mis-timing of the strikes and possible heat buildup which burns our fucking hands which is universally sucky. A coil machine requires a specific amount of voltage(depending on it's possible varients of design,parts,geometry,etc.) to complete its action efficiently. Any more voltage than is needed to do so will only cause sparking and heat. Conversely, too little voltage will create missed or stuttered strokes making the machine appear to hit softer and slower.
Rotaries have a much larger range of speed abilities and much higher consistancies throughout that range when compared to coils, which are happiest when at their voltage balance point. On coils we adjust the voltage to find that spot where it's running in tune, timed and efficient, then turn it up a bit when we add a needlbar to compensate for the added weight and resistance of the tube and needle and rubber bands. Then turn it up a bit more to handle the resistance of the skin. With a rotary I adjust the voltage to where I think the rpm's should be and adjust from there depending on it feels...

Nice thread indeed I wanted to post something similar the other day actually ! So Sage Oz, you're saying that votage = # of cycles ?

ok i think im not explaining myself right im just trying to figure out how if ur volts lets say that u have it running at 6.5 volts someone had said that was equal to 65 cps which in my opinion would be too slow and if thats the case that might b y some people have problems lining with a rotary

now i dont know about rotaries but i do know coils and i have no problem with line work its just that ive seen so many people asking how to line with a rotary now with a shader(coil) ucould get away with it goin 65 cps but u would have to move so slow to get a solid line

i think the specifics are too broad here to follow a general rule. You can have a motor in one machine that is capable of 14,000rpm at 8 volts and another that is rated at say 8,000. Both would be completely different at any voltage and there would never be a direct voltage to cps. It would better to know the rpm at that voltage. Someone posted a cps to rpm conversion. It might have been Cary from Tattooed Pirate. It was something ( don't quote me on this ) close to 9000rpm was about equal to 150cps. Even then that rpm rating is for an unloaded motor. Once it is in the machine, the rpm drops and now it must overcome friction, weight, and apposing forces like springs. So now 9,000 might only be 8,000 once you factor in the machine, needle and tube, rubber bands, etc. However maybe he took that into account and then it might be a motor with a rating of 9000rpm might have a real world function of about 150cps. Again this is from my dusty memory, i need to find that thread.

I m not sure about what I m going to say, but I think it depends on the motor. Some are 8000 rpm (revolutions per minute if i remember right) some 7500 etc ... plus there are 6 volts, 12 volts motors etc ... It will depend on the machine, for exemple the Cheyenne Hawk manual does specify the rpm corresponding to the voltage used.

http://www.rotarytattoo.com/showthre...ighlight=motor

it was No Iron Machine, and Ray from Neo tat talking about motor specifics.. maybe halfway down the page

Quote:

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Originally Posted by No Iron Machines

HELLO

ACCETTABLE RPM is between 9000 to 12000 NO LOAD, some people use 14000 or more for DIRECT DRIVE ROTARY, i think is really a lot, becouse suppose the COILS MACHINES run maybe at 90 to 120 HZ with needles and rubber band, LINER or SHADING depend of course, have one procedure to compare RPM of ROTARY to HZ of COILS machines, i don remenber now, need ask to my fahter , is an electronic technic, him know

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ok so i wont compare the two from this point forward just trying to figure this motor thing out want to build my own so thanks for the help just needed some info

8000 rpm are good for shading/color but 10000rpm is what you need for a good liner if your useing machines with give/crankshafts
if your using a directdrive you can use a slower motor as it will be just as fast.

what we actually need is manufacturers specs on motor volts to rps(rpm/60). 1 rps on a motor would equal to 1cps on coils. with an actual spec chart for each motor, no matter what machine, we would be able to better understand our machines. the only variable would be loaded vs unloaded, but at least we would be in the ballpark

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ckjr

what we actually need is manufacturers specs on motor volts to rps(rpm/60). 1 rps on a motor would equal to 1cps on coils. with an actual spec chart for each motor, no matter what machine, we would be able to better understand our machines. the only variable would be loaded vs unloaded, but at least we would be in the ballpark

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These aren't perfect but i am pretty sure they are close

I am pretty sure that the neo tat is about 8000
the treasure chest is about 9000 as well as the rapier I
the rapier II is faster 10000 or 11000 I believe

this basically confirms jimmee's (jesone79) idea that higher rpm is better for lining

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tatu richie

this basically confirms jimmee's (jesone79) idea that higher rpm is better for lining

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Haha, if my numbers are correct

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tatu richie

this basically confirms jimmee's (jesone79) idea that higher rpm is better for lining

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Would also depend on how fast you want to line for what size configuration you would want to use.

I wonder if a car engine timer or something similar could read the actual speed of rotory machines at varying volts. I'd love to be able to know the actual rpm

http://www.google.com/m/products/cat...ed=0CCkQ8wIwAA



This should work

given that 1 rpm=1 cps then 9000rpm =150 cps/rps

sorry should have read the prevoius page

[QUOTE=OwlsDen;29198][url]http://www.google.com/m/products/catalog?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&q=rpm+measure ment+tool&gs_sm=1&gs_upl=11308l15525l0l16879l11l11 l0l2l2l0l496l1503l2-1.1.2l4l0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=14010059422608863668&near=Nuremberg ,%20Germany&sa=X&ei=nWE9T7U65MDRAfuDhM4H&ved=0CCkQ 8wIwAA[/url

[QUOTE=OwlsDen;29198]http://www.google.com/m/products/cat...ed=0CCkQ8wIwAA

Good work Owly, you're like the scooby doo of tattooing :)
Gotta order me one ASAP.

Glad I could help

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tugg

given that 1 rpm=1 cps then 9000rpm =150 cps/rps

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and if a neo tat is 8000 rpms but that doesnt tell me what volts it runs at 8000 rpms cuz volts =speed on a rotary or am i wrong on that

You would be correct sir. Also the motor in the neo tat has like 3 versions so getting solid specs is hard. Also Ray has said that he gets his built to his spec. Maybe he will chime in here and set us all straight.

Im sure the 8000 goes in rapiers unles you get a dedicated liner 10 000.