bootlegs vs. originals

so...,i have always been a supporter of supply companies and builders who only sell to real tattooers in shops. that being said, it seems that a few of my co-workers are buying knock offs of the dragonfly n saying how I'm a sucker for spending the money on the original when theirs was only $70 bux. so aside from saying how buying knock offs destroy our business and the ppl who have worked hard to give us new machines, has anyone had any bad experiences with these said machines or explain why they are bad, construction wise, to help me have some sort of proof for my argument with my co workers other than just saying , "ur a cheap bastard, fuck off" when they want to say I'm the sucker.hahaha.thanks for the info;)

Well I have tried a few of the Swiss knock off machines, all garbage. The power and the torque of the real machine are never matched. The quality of build is never the same. All the little things like bearing just don't last. And they aren't as quiet. I would like to also say that these are the cheap copies not the similar machines. ( such as the Peter Tiegs or Slava ) just the cheap Chinese ones.

I also have used a Chawk ( hawk copy ), and it is sad to say, it really is close. Not perfect but really close. The motor isn't as good and the noise is a little more noticeable, but it works.

yea i had a stealth but for me, it just felt so cheap that i sold it soon after using it on one tattoo.my co worker bought it n then bought 2 more for $20 bux on ebay. a knockoff of a knock off. the dragonfly copies are being sold at the swap meets out here.its so sad how they literally took a dragonfly n just made an exact mold. i wanna buy one just to take apart to see what it really is working with.

It's unethical, ok I get thinking behind try before buy ,but
I doubt forum users would buy knock offs.tell your co workers
To buy quality gear from people either directly in the industry
Or working closely along side it otherwise tattoo money
Is going out the door to people looking to exploit and make fast buck.
If you buy off a builder and endorse his product he can build more great
Stuff in the future because he can afford to,without good customers
None of us could do what we want to be doing I'm sure if someone
Imitated your style of work and did it loads cheaper after you had drawn it for em you would
Be pretty pissed

oh no, I'm not asking bc I'm interested in buying.the only one i bought was a stealth but i was curious based on the reviews. i have seen numerous forum members, mainly builders, buying knock offs to see how they tickn to post reviews to why they are bad. so i figured if someone on here had some knowledge as to why they suck, more than the obvious reasons, it might make my co workers think twice bc they are more concerned with their wallets than their morals.

I was given a Firefly (Dragonfly copy) by a Supplier..Physically it looks the same, realistically, the motor was slightly underpowered, and parts used were pretty flimsy...An upgraded motor was fitted, and sturdier parts were swapped over for the original ones....All in all, it works, but it is what it is a cheap copy. These Machines have reached their ceiling price of £100/$150, and the price will keep dropping now. The Swashdrive Whip copies are "the new kids on the block" how they got away with such a blatant copy is beyond comprehension...Copies are what they are, parts used will be the cheapest available in a bid to reduce costs and maximize profits.

yea, it seems like the only thing good about the "firefly" is the casing. haha. these guys buying them seriously think spending $70 bux is worth it even if it only lasts a few months. the whole premise is that they are cheap n throwing away money for a machine that most likely will take a shit sooner than later. it defeats the purpose in my eyes. i love my dragonfly n think its the few rotaries out there that is well worth the price tag.

hey Eric03 since you have a real one and they have a fake one..just lay them next to each other and let your co-workers see the difference in person. shit all they have to do is pic it up and run the machine to see and feel the difference.

I fully understand the ethics of this discussion BUT a lot of name rotaries are built around cheap but quality motors and plastics that are cheap also so i honestly believe the difference in quality isn't as great as the difference in price. I have a stealth copy that cost me £20 that i use regular as it shades and packs just as well as machines i've bought that were X15 more expensive!!!! I will continue to support the original builders purely on ethics and principle NOT necessarily because of the value of their products.

From a logic point.. who do you think would make it better - the guys that designed it, from scratch or the guys that are making one that looks like it. The reality is most of the chinese knock offs are not made by machine builder, so they don't even understand what they are making and why or how it should work.

I'm not saying all knock offs are garbage, but in most cases there is a reason why they like a cheaply made version of they are supposed to be. When you make something from scratch - whether its a tattoo machine (coil or rotary) you understand more about it. Making my own tattoo machines always gave me a better understanding of what did what and why it did it.

That experience and ability to make the tool means you grasp what you using. Go Bot or Transformer, one was a knock off and is now just a joke, one is still being produced and people know and identify with it. I know that's a fucked up analogy but if you look at it this way. Seth C started by taking machines apart and moving stuff and trying stuff and making it work and learning what makes it work. His machines can actually increase in value because, they are made by a dude that GETS what he is making. Not to mention the customer service and quality that comes with it.

You get what you pay for, and a knock off is usually just an uneducated copy of the original. The dude in China make be able to make a machine that looks like the original but simply put it doesn't work as well because he just doesn't understand the hows and whys of it being made. He doesn't tattoo and he doesn't test the machines because he has no idea what it supposed to do.

thats awesome nivek. as a fellow old school nerd that would understand it,the go bots/transformers analogy is awesome. I'm gonna steal that.lol.

The good rotaries use swiss motors which will run good and smooth for long periods of time where the cheap shitty ones burn up quicker, get hot some machines bind. Noone will respect an artist that uses a chinese machine period. I bougjt a china hawk on ebay to see it basically and its junk the thing is soooo cheap compared to an original hawk. The chinese copy vibrates the tips dont seat or stay in good. And if you try n adjust the tip the cartrige shoots across the room. if u actually used it on a customer it would be embarrassing

Eric I bet your buddies like those crappy Chinese coil machines as well, and getting and giving cheap crappy tattoos if that's their attitude. Can't drive in style in a Yugo, let alone win a race or even make it to the finish line. If it weren't supporting knockoff manufacturers, I'd recommend that they buy lots more of those 'cause of the low price so they could waste more money on crap that isn't worth the metal it's made of.

For the amount of money that you make as a tattoo artist, the price of a tattoo machine is maybe 2-3 days of work if that. A good tattoo machine last years if is looked after and used properly. I bet those coworkers get offended if a client asks them to do a tattoo 3 times cheaper. :)

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Originally Posted by Blondan

For the amount of money that you make as a tattoo artist, the price of a tattoo machine is maybe 2-3 days of work if that. A good tattoo machine last years if is looked after and used properly. I bet those coworkers get offended if a client asks them to do a tattoo 3 times cheaper. :)

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And its a tax deduction

I've tried two cheapos they suck! I'm stickin with the coils until I can afford a good rotary

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Originally Posted by Blondan

For the amount of money that you make as a tattoo artist, the price of a tattoo machine is maybe 2-3 days of work if that. A good tattoo machine last years if is looked after and used properly. I bet those coworkers get offended if a client asks them to do a tattoo 3 times cheaper. :)

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thats exactly right. a good friend of mine insists on cheap shit. he"ll buy chinese coil machines, strip em down and rebuild after they die. I barely get to see him, but when I do, he always borrows my shit because somethings not right with his. even his wife (make up artist w/stigmas) calls him a cheap ass.

Any tattoo artist that can buy a knock off and feel no guilt or shame to me isn't a real tattooer. Most likely they are new in this business because no one that is old school would do such a thing. Seems that the new tattoo generation has no ethics or morals, now not all of them, but more than I can count and most can certainly agree. I feel that the ones that step up and buy originals, them folks should feel proud and contributious to our industry and will be blessed.

The ones that have no ethics and morals, well they won't be blessed and automatically lose respect in the eyes of their peers because at the end of the day it says something about thier character and if i was a shop Owner, id keep my eyes on them. Those are the type that will steal in a heartbeat. Kinda like a guy working for nike, but buys the fake ones from china cuz they are cheaper....... GET IT??? CHEAPER!!! It's just strange how a tattooer can do that shit without feeling bad. I don't get it. Just my 2 cents and I'm sure I'm not alone.

What about people that sale there machines through distributors that sell knock offs?

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Originally Posted by hendricksonart.com

What about people that sale there machines through distributors that sell knock offs?

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Ooh snap.... Haha

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Originally Posted by buddyhunter

I've tried two cheapos they suck! I'm stickin with the coils until I can afford a good rotary

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A well built coil will never let ya down! and if it does (like all things in live) you can rebuild,rewrap and retune it with not to much loss of money.

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Originally Posted by asA

Ooh snap.... Haha

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yes there alot of top rotary builders that are selling this way-that sell to the general public and sell there's right next to knockoffs.

Oh I know. Just crazy to see someone called out after they go off on morals. And their machines are sold to the public.....that's all.

maybe we should make a list of builders/makers that sell there goods to the general public or next to knockoffs.

I wonder how many will be left to buy from then...

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Originally Posted by slicksteel

maybe we should make a list of builders/makers that sell there goods to the general public or next to knockoffs.

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Stir a cold turd and all you get it the same stink all over again.

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Originally Posted by asA

Oh I know. Just crazy to see someone called out after they go off on morals. And their machines are sold to the public.....that's all.

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I don't feel called out one bit. Just an ignorant off topic comment by whatever his name is. I know plenty of reputable companies that have distributors that sell quality name brand equiptment, along with inferior and bootleg products whether it be machines, stencil goo, fake thermo fax paper, bootleg tubes, re modified power boxes with their brand on it and many other products.

How many of you know that tattoo ink is one of the most copied/bootleg products? Same recipe, just packaged differently. Whether 2 partners split up or the chemist does a backdoor deal to his tattoo artist friend. Now not all ink but a good amount. Then theres the black n grey wash systems? Every company now has their own bootleg version you could justifiably say were copied shortly after silverback launched.

At the end of the day it's not up to me or any other company to monitor each distributor or their morals because if that was the case, I'm sure each distributor is in violation of selling one or more items that fit our concerns. As for the general public, let's not fool ourselves, it's not hard to trick a company to getting an account and ordering product. I certainly don't agree with that but I'm not here to monitor the world, there are way too many distributors and too many tattoo artists.

To stick to the topic of this thread, at the end of the day each artist has a concious and moral choice of buying fake machines to save a buck and hes responsible for his choices. The worst part is that the fake machines don't ever work the same and in time it's not worth the hassle.

We do our best to make sure our customers are all professional artists wether we look them up on google(which is the easiest we found) or Facebook and then find their shop and look that up on google. No company can 1oo% filter every scratcher out but we do attempt to more than we possibly can. So no we don't sell to the general public, we've cancelled at least 100 orders due to us finding out they aren't professional.

We have spun this topic in circles already, when you are in a position that you have more than one distributor carrying your product its difficult to keep an eye on all of them when you are trying to already keep an eye on your own quality control.

its so funny how most posts on here go so off topic.haha. overall, its always a double edged sword. if quality machines n companies are sold through shitty supply houses that cater to scratchers, it makes it so they are helping the business most of us try to have respect for, get congested with ppl who don't. then on the flip side, if a scratcher decides to buy the quality machine from these said companies, then maybe they will see the quality n stop buying knock offs. either way this business has changed n all we can do as individuals in this business is do what we feel is right for ourselves and our own morals. i myself won't buy or support companies that sell to everyone. i buy from kingpin or luckys. unfortunately, i did buy from world wide once to get the stealth n have bought from unimax to get my swashdrives. so, its hard to b completely black or white without having some grey.

Ignorant comment? You sell machines through world wide tattoo supply they only sell knock off machines and then yours right with the fake fks. Wasn't trying to take a stab at you just pointing something out.I

i think its artists responsibility ive been tattooing for almost 15 years and have watched this industry become what it is because 18.95 a tube from dermagraphics is too expensive now but then we bitch that it sucks when u buy crap lmao so you the artist have created this monster now you have to deal with it its not up to the builders to not make money its up to the artists to decide if its worth buying from them no matter what they do with their products

I have a hawk spirit and a guy i know bought a chink copy out of curiosity. And there wasnt even enough stroke to even penetrate the skin deep enough for the pigments to stay. Every artist ive seen that uses a cheap copy is not a respectable artist at all. A good artist cares about the quality of his work and would spend the extra money on a far superior machine. Basically ive never seen a good artist with a home scratcher machine (chinese copies) those are made for people who have no honor for this profession. The chinese have made it so any home scratcher can afford all the equipment for hardly any money so these dipshit teenyboppers can scar and fuckup their so called friends with ink that will be regretted in the future. (Sorry about my spelling im typing from a phone). But this industry used to have certain standards and honor among artists. Its changed alot. Fuck these faggots who support china not people who actually know how to tattoo and build a good machine.