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I ordered a Bishop on Thursday & it arrived today, thats less than a week from USA to UK.
I havent used it yet, but I run it & it was so smooth, reckon I'll have no trouble lining with it.
Cant wait to use it tomorrow
Thanks Franco your definitely the man :cool:
I love my old bishop and new capo. 2 of my best..Franco is a great guy.
Which stroke length did you get? It's an awesome machine but I don't use it for lining unless it's on the top of the foot or a fat person's calf. In my opinion it's a little on the slow side with too soft of a hit for lining. I've only tried the the 3.6 though, I imagine you'd have a better time lining if you were using the 4 mm stroke. Great little shader though, nice and smooth!
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the 4,2 is a monster liner i use it for all my old school lines 11-14-18 rs
I dont get how ppl can say the bishop hits soft .. it has zero give it hits the same as a neo tat witch is hard i have owned 3 the reason it feels soft is because of the no give use a soft grommet or paper towel square and it will feel like its hitting harder when actually its hitting softer... its the same deal with my spektra for lining with the give cranked it feels like i have to work harder for my lines like it doesnt do what i want as much with the give locked down tight then you open it up slightly witch is makin the hit softer bit it feel like its getting a better hit in the skin some may assume its harder lol if that makes any sense. And you can line just fine with zero give it just takes getting used to i found while using the bishop of vivace that you can move fast but at the start of the line you have to make sure you get the correct puncture once the needle has punctured the skin correctly you hold it at that depth and move across the line holding the machine on a constant angle and depth feeling it get that crunchy puncture feeling through the whole line i find the best way is to puncture then back off slightly just ise the tips of the needles with rotary sometimes it feels you have to push harder on the skin this is not true you only have to push harder to get that initial puncture at the start of the line then back off the presure and feel the machine feeding the ink into skin skin filling it up, ill know if i have a nice line even before i wipe because of the feeling in the skin
Like run your machine at 8.5 volts and press your thumb into the nipple how is that soft on any shape or form the machine goes all the way down and all the way up with every stroke . Now do it with any coil you own and tell me the bishop still hits soft , just feels soft in the skin because your not taking your time and getting a correct puncture and the skin is bouncing with the needle most likely.. just my two cents corrrect me if im wrong but thats been my personal experience and its how i tattoo everyday feeling that inital punch then backoming my hand pressure off slightly your hand is what creates the softness not the machine. I find the best result using my spektra with 1 turn out with t tech , I believe the t tech also gives a slight dampening. It would be awesome to get franco's input on this in a old post he had it said he was using rubber nipples of some sort but when speaking on the phone to him recently he told me he preffered using paper towel squares I think most no give rotary users will agree a soft nipple or paper towel grommet is the way to go atleast for lining and Color packing black and grey is awesome with no give
First off I'd like to say that this is probably a worthwhile debate and I hope that it doesn't turn into an argument (just my 2¢ as well). I both agree and disagree with you Joel. It might just be that I'm using the wrong terminology, but if you listen to what I'm trying to say and don't get too hung up on words I think you'll catch my drift BananaJuicy. Just know that "give" and "hit" are two different things. While the Capo is a no-give machine it still has a softer hit than some other no-give machines and also some adjustable machines at a no-give setting. So I don't think that you can rightfully say that a machine can't have somewhat of a soft hit just because it's a no-give machine. I'd say that even with my Spektra set up with some give it still hits harder than my Bishop by a good deal.
I agree that when you release the give a bit on the Spektra that you have better luck with lining. Let's say you're using a 3.6 mm stroke wheel w/ your Halo. If you have it tightened down to a "no-give" setting you will have a 3.6mm stroke length. Now let's say you let out the give setting a bit leaving you with a 3.8 millimeter stroke, you'd now have .2mm of give. So basically when you touch the needle tips to the skin you'd be able to press down another .2mm before you compressed the spring all the way again and were essentially back to "no-give". That's give. I think this is where it gets a little tricky to talk about but here it goes.
I certainly don't want to put words in Gaston's mouth, nor do I want to search threads for exactly what he said, but as I understand it the Spektra's give system is set up so that when you allow for a bit of give you actually end up with a harder downstroke than upstroke. You're adding more velocity to the downstroke than you'd have at a no-give setting which I would think constitutes a harder hit. Regardless of how he worded it, it certainly feels that way to me, and apparently to you too even though it may not fit the exact definition of our terminology Joel.
This is where we encounter some gray area and I can't say with confidence that it's actually a harder hit sense you're adding give at the same time, kind of a contradiction. Perhaps we need an additional term in order to accurately define the "hit" if we don't have one already. Velocity, torque? If how I described the Spektra's give system as it relates to the hit is accurate, I would still have to concede that at the very least you'd have less torque through the .2mm length of the stroke where you'd have give. We may be splitting hairs at this point but can we say that we have a harder hit if we've increased velocity of the downstroke but add give at the same time?
Lastly, you call it whatever you want, and I don't know if it's the stroke length or the speed at a reasonable range of volts or what, but THE CAPO HITS SOFT! Too soft to line efficiently for my technique, and I don't much like slowing down or pushing down too hard in order to compensate for it either. Glad to hear it works well for you Joel, it's definitely an awesome machine. I hope it makes a great liner for you as well Banana, but I'm definitely not the only one who shares the opinion that the bishop is too soft for a good liner. Good luck w/ it 'Nana, keep us posted.
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I think your right it comes down to torque and I think the torque is what gives you that initial puncture easier when I ran my capo next to my spektra the motors sounded different forsure even though they are both Swiss the bishop did sound slower or maybe softer and the spektra a bit more zippy maybe this is why machines like the rotary works etc line better even with zero give because the torque allows you to pop through the skin easier and get that initial puncture I was talking about without slowing down at the start I find I can line fast with any rotary but I have to slow down for the initial puncture on the line maybe a 6volt motor or something that runs with a lot more torque would help I have a cranker on the way we will see thanks for the input man I by no means think I know everything but I use rotarys everyday and am constantly trying to figure out what makes them tick and what techniques make them more efficient
Well i like the torque on my spektra.
Me too litteraly everything in my top drawer has not been touched since i got mine especially with t tech set up no need for really anything else well except to satisfy my brain and its new machine cravings haha
I feel the exact same way man, thank YOU. Love this forum. I've never been into forums at all but I'm addicted. I'm on here all the time the last couple months. I feel like I've gained a wealth of information from all of you guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by joelhague
Please let me know how it goes with the Crancker. Lining has definitely been my biggest problem with rotaries, or coils for that matter. :-) The Crankers get a lot of mention around here! Anxious to hear how you like it and how it compares to your other machines. Sounds like we work with a similar set up. I use my Spektra and Capo almost exclusively as of late.
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Both of you make great points (paw job and Joel) but there are to many variables for us to truly put you finger on it, that's why it's a grey area.
I have used machines with give and no give, to out line tattoos.
But when I look back at what was the sweetest lining machine I've used (and still do) it's the 3.5 neo Vivace. Even when working on the ribs I get good lines.
It's not as easy to line with a Rotory, but the rewards are worth it. Super black lines that look like you drew them on with a sharpie:)
In the end, it's what works for you at the time, everyone changes and progress's. some people like to line slow and low, other need it fast and zippy. One thing is for sure, there is a machine out there for you and this is the best forum in the world to find them!!!
I like to line on the slow side, just filling in the skin as good as I can, making it even and as saturated as possible! Or I'll build up line work with little passes, which gets a good saturated look, I only do this when I need line weight though.
I'm loving the dragon fly long stoke to line with as well, it does move slow, but that's how I like it, plus I can just turn it up when I want to move faster. Lol...
I do believe the capo hits hard, but it's not snappy, so it's smooth:) which might make it feel soft........
Before I jump in to this discussion....Think this...Say a Builder builds two Identical Machines, and fits one with a Nanco motor, and the other with a Maxon Motor, both have the same stroke length, say 3.5mm for arguments sake...Taking into account voltage, will both machines have the same force of hit...
PS..I was fortunate to have used one of Joels Bishop, and have ran various stroke Rotaries...This could be a very interesting, and informative thread...:)
Haha tell me about it I have a link to the forums on the homepage of my phone you should see the looks I get from my girlfriend when we are at the grocery store and I'm on here looking at tattoo stuff hahahaQuote:
Originally Posted by PAWNJOB
I agree with you both g graves and skinmech , your right any machine with a different motor would perform a little different then the original but how much is the debate its still got all the same working mechanics
The difference I think a lot of people would feel would probably just be due to the voltages being different and the sweet spot changing I mean a machine can only run so fast or hard before it vibrates and rattles too much so putting a super powerfull 6v motor on something like this bishop would it really make it perform that much different or would you just be running it on lower volts and getting the same effect I think what makes the spektra feel different is the faster down stroke and the slight give that mimics a soft grommet even when using a solid rubber one
Have any of you watched the rotary review by Keith ciaramello you can purchase it on his site after seeing that it really opened my eyes to how rotary machines work and what makes each one different from the next and the truth is a lot are the same and feel the same in the skin they are just in a different frame or body with different bells and whistles but a lot of them all work the same
Ok...I will jump in, Please bear in mind these are my opinions.. :D...The Bishop does not have the same force of hit as say a comparative Machine such as the Neotat long stroke, it has the same mechanics, but not the same force to penetrate skin within the same voltage band,....This comes down to torque, the easiest way to explain torque is this....Lets pretend we have a sprint race, between a 19 stone (270 pound) Rugby Player, and a 10 Stone (140 pound) Athlete...The Rugby Player is placed 100 yards behind the Athlete, and the Rugby Player runs first...When he passes the Athlete, then the Athlete can join the Race....Torque is the momentum built up as the Rugby Player passes the Athlete...The Athlete is speed, the Rugby Player is torque.....Did any one follow that,LOL
Mmm...
How bout referring to an adjustable torque drill. You turn it up to 20 and it delivers all the torque you can stand (let's say 30 lbs. of torque?), turn it down to 1 and you still have the exact same speed but as soon as it meets any resistance (let's say more than 1 lbs.) it disengages the drive to the bit - low torque. Set it to 10 and you might need 15 lbs of resistance to disengage the bit - it would deliver 15 lbs of torque.
I would also think the weight of the slider(like neo,bishop)or how long the actual crank bar is(like a df or rapier) the more weight/size on the the slider such as a blitz its going to be louder due to more surface area touching and more downward punch. also the stroke length and the actual cam size would play a part. i do now that you can have a lot of torque and no speed that you will have to push the needle in to get it started like joel said.
I agree! I would think that "snappy" is referring to the velocity or acceleration of the downstroke, and the amount of weight or force behind the needle would refer to the torque. I gotta believe the harder downstoke of the Spektra having a different speed or velocity than the upstroke causes much of it's vibrations, but it's a very effective machine. The Capo having a more consistent speed throughout the entire revolution would naturally produce a smoother, and therefore softer hit as it pertains to velocity at least, NOT torque. Though the torque (or lack there of) of the Capo's motor allows for a decent amount of give by itself through most of the usable voltage range, it definitely hits hard as hell when it's cranked up, no give to speak of at that point. "Smooth" is definitely the word to describe the Capo!Quote:
Originally Posted by G.Graves
When you look at the stroke of a coil machine the a-bar keeps accelerating until it collides with the coil core. Rotaries have a more consistent speed throughout the stroke. Add a spring for dampening and now you've got an even slower downstroke and faster upstroke for most rotaries. I think that's really what defines the hit of a coil machine and why so many people prefer it for lining (the velocity). But maybe that stroke profile is just a little too aggressive for shading and that's why we really like the extra torque and smoother hit of our rotaries. It's a much more precise hit with rotaries without give, and maybe that's why they're so effective and efficient for shading and every other aspect of tattooing aside from lining for some people. I don't know if I'm buying too much into this faster downstroke of the Spektra but it sounds legit and it sure feels like it when I'm using it. I think that as we advance and perfect the technology and mechanisms for rotaries to achieve a snappier downstroke that you'll really see coils being left in the dust as it pertains to lining. This maybe the last real hurdle for rotary builders.
i got the 3.5 stroke, I've used it for lining, shading & colour packing, I agree its a little slower for lining, Im used to lining quite fast, but slowing down isnt such a bad thing I feel like the Bishop has made me slow down & think about what Im doing a bit more.Quote:
Originally Posted by PAWNJOB
Think I'll be ordering a 4.2 very soon :)
OH BLIMEY................ I just swaped to rotarys to simplify things :( .
Ha. :p
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