A different ways to do things...

Ok so i have noticed that alot of the critiques on the site refer back to problems/minor corrections at the drawing stage... So normally redraw an immage 3 times for it to be at its best..

well heres stage 1 drawing of a phoenix im doing tomorrow this is literally 20 mins sketching for a phoenix, no tracing totally custom..

If anyone wishes to help make improvements to the design please offer them up to me and then i will repost stage 2 drawing with the improvements and then again for stage 3...

I know there are alot of different types of phoenix and if u look at referances theres 100000 ways to draw a phoenix so all adjustments will be thought through, thought this would be a great thing to bring to the forum helping each other improve tattoos before its too late and on someones body! cheers guys!

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/...53E0132B71.jpg

I would add more feathers to the wings and spread them out a bit more. They seem a bit stiff.

Also maybe make the tail feathers longer and think about having them all flow in the same direction. Right now they seem too short and too sparse.

Thanks owl! :) i will add that to the next phase! Much apreciated

Try to draw the wings to where they aren't symmetrical looking. Make the tail feathers longer like Owl said. Also, the way the wings are drawn now, that is what you would see from the underside of a wing. You wouldn't see that from a top view. I like the head the way it is.

Where on the body is it going?

Ok wings will be changed its for the inside of the right arm, so the head will be facing forward onto the bicep, thats why the tail feathers are quite short trying to keep it above the elbo

body ,tails,head look nice-ditch the wings and redraw those-dont look right at that angle

Thanks all for the advice will redraw repost and then post the tattoo when im done :)

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/...4DBD7801C1.jpg

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/...5263FB1087.jpg

Well I don't like the wings at all and the tails still look too short.

Haha someone just messaged me saying the wings look 100 times better... :-/

Stuck between 2 totally different opinions now.. haha i suppose art has as much to do with opinion as it does with right or wrong..

And owl didnt you read the post about placement inside his arm? it is at the limit of the area of his arm, unless i make the phoenix body tiny the tail feathers cannot get any longer, lengthened them a bit but it at the limit.

You can make them longer and loop behind the bird. It could also add a layer of depth to the piece. Everything seems to be on one plane. Might be more dynamic if you try and use 3.

I would do the head looking up and put more flow on it according to where it's gonna fit. Where is it going on ?

This is probably going to be very long-winded, so stick with me here.

When I work, I do the same thing. I draw and re-draw probably 3 or 4 times until I'm satisfied, and I do a TON of research. Especially for mythical creatures, like the phoenix. The fun thing about them, is that you can do them so many zillions of different ways, but still make them look pretty damn cool because you have so much "real-life" reference to choose from.

My suggestion would be to take a look at a lot of different types of birds. Use a different bird for each part of your drawing. I've put together a few that might help with your flow.

First, the head: the proportions in the face seem slightly off. The eye is a little too squishy, and as it stands right now might run the risk of just looking like a black almond shape on its face. Essentially, you've given the bird a person's eye, not a bird's eye. Open it up a bit, make it a little bigger and rounder. That way you'll have more room to make that eye shine and still get some color into it without it being clouded up with heavy black. (unless you want a black eye, just keep in mind that it should still look open and shiny!) Consider looking at a Resplendent Quezal for a mid-length neck shape and proportions.

Next, the body: The body right now is very, cylindrical. Think of an actual bird's body. They're very aerodynamic, very curvy. A hummingbird is a great example to look at. They have a nice, broad upper body, that quickly narrows out as it gets closer to the tail. Using a body like this, might also help cut down on the length of the phoenix, leaving more room for it's tail.
Hummingbird pic:
http://www.carolinanature.com/pix/ecuador/hum10578a.jpg

The wings: The wings obviously can't be at full-span because of the space you've got to work with, so you'll have to go with a shape that almost looks like the bird is 'taking off'. Something like this: http://ibc.lynxeds.com/files/pictures/HBW06-COR-06.jpg And obviously, don't be afraid to play with lengthening some of those feathers to give it more character and flow.

Finally, the tail: Check out this site for long-tailed birds. This is where I found names of birds to get these other photos I've posted. When it comes to the curvature of the tail feathers think of how air would actually make them move if that bird was just taking off. Closer to the body, the feathers would be thrust outward (toward the viewer) or behind the body of the bird because they naturally stick their butts out a little and widen their tails before jumping into the air. The very end of the tail would curl a little under them (away from the viewer) due to it's length and eventually when they get up to speed, their tail straightens out almost completely. Overall, imagine the tail as a rough backwards "C" shape and then use the very end of the tail to have some fun and make them spread out, curve, or over lap a bit.

The most important thing to remember when taking all this in, is to never ever be a slave to your reference. Tweak, adjust, exaggerate and play with all of it to fit your style and needs. I think you've got a great start, and I'm really diggin' the style of your tail feathers! I don't know if any of this helps. I just know that for me, personally, if I have realistic proportions and shapes to work with it makes stylization a significant amount easier. Because really, you need to understand the way something moves or has the potential to move before you can make your drawing feel just as natural instead of stiff or slightly out of proportion. (even if you're not going for realism)

Sorry for the text wall!!

The composition of this piece for where it's going is not very good imo. 10 years ago I did a similar tattoo with this same layout on someones arm. I had the wings out just like this, but on the guys arm you couldn't see both wings fully at the same time which kinda made it look a little off. For where it's going, you are better off doing something similar to this picture which I just googled. I would use this as a reference for composition. Viewpoint where one wing is more in view and more defined is better than two wings squished into a limited space. I'm not saying to copy the picture, but I would use it for reference for the wing layout. Just my opinion though.
Attachment 19556

The wing on the left appears to be coming out more toward the chest of the bird as opposed to the back, I'd suggest bringing it in to the right more and starting it closer to the other wing. The phoenix is my arch nemesis for drawing. I referenced dozens for a half sleeve I had to draw once and none of them were anatomically correct, I convinced the girl to get sugar skulls instead!