Skin not taking ink?

Hi guys, I am currently working on a sleeve for a client, she is around 23 and quite physically fit, no obvious skin conditions or stretchmarks.
My problem is that her skin simply does not take ink well. I have tried adjusting the needles out further, tried stretching more than normal, tried a different brand of ink (I normally use only eternal inks) but NOTHING will make her skin take ink better.
Its so bad that a 3 inch section that would normally take me around an hour or 2 takes me 3 or 4 because I have to keep going over it. Not to the point of carving it up obviously, but still far more than I would with any other customer. I have seen 3 out of 4 of her sittings so far, nothing has scarred and everything has healed up fine, but not as detailed as I would like as you have to really pound in the colour over and over.
I am wondering if perhaps she is dehydrated? Or if there is any kind of lotion I can recommend for a week or so prior to getting her next sitting? Her skin feels tough and thick, but is not visibly dry.
It is upsetting because it is a beautiful sleeve that we designed, but it is now taking waaaay too long, and I genuinely feel bad charging her for the amount of time it is taking.
Anyone encountered anything like this? what would you recommend?

Personally I wouldn't charge for extra time if I felt it was somehow to do with my technique, equipment, or whatever, cause my setup is not her fault. But what machine are you using? direct drive? How many needles? Mag or RS?, bugpins? or #12's?

What's your give like?

There are a lot of things that can work but slowing down when you're lining should be half the effort. Thinner inks can also make a difference, I know by experience that with certain skin types Eternal lining black can be harder to get in. Tougher skin basically means it needs more force to be punctured, so changing just one of your variables can make a big difference. Think ink, needles, machine setup or "skin prep". I personally would chose to change a variable you control. If you think preparing the skin would do the trick for you instead of changing your setup, try using warm water in your squeeze bottle and/or massaging the skin more while your working.

I am using original neo tats, 7 liner and 7 and 11 curve mags for the shading. I normally run my colour packer anywhere from 10 to 11.5 volts when colour packing, but on her even 12v just does not get the colour solid. I have the long stroke for colour packing (3.5?) and I usually set the needle about .5 back into the tube, and for grey shading I use my standard stroke with the needle almost flush.
And yeah, her last sitting took 2 and a half hours, and I only charged her $125. I am normally $150 an hour, but I feel that this should have been almost finished by now, and we are only less than half way through.
I dont feel it is my machines or needle setup as I have never encountered such issues with getting ink into skin on a regular body part. Its not like its someones rib-cage or stomach, its just an arm. I dont understand why I am having such issues, its like tattooing a rhino I swear!

I will try the warm water in the squeeze bottle, I have never heard of that before but it makes sense and at this point I will try anything!

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Originally Posted by Miss Elizabeth

I am using original neo tats, 7 liner and 7 and 11 curve mags for the shading. I normally run my colour packer anywhere from 10 to 11.5 volts when colour packing, but on her even 12v just does not get the colour solid. I have the long stroke for colour packing (3.5?) and I usually set the needle about .5 back into the tube, and for grey shading I use my standard stroke with the needle almost flush.
And yeah, her last sitting took 2 and a half hours, and I only charged her $125. I am normally $150 an hour, but I feel that this should have been almost finished by now, and we are only less than half way through.
I dont feel it is my machines or needle setup as I have never encountered such issues with getting ink into skin on a regular body part. Its not like its someones rib-cage or stomach, its just an arm. I dont understand why I am having such issues, its like tattooing a rhino I swear!

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wow tattooing 2 years and charging 150$ an hour. Good for you. You must be amazing.

What type of needles do you use btw?

I'm a solid 15 years in and charging $150 lol.


Sent from a galaxy far, far away...

just curiouse but does she tan??only reason i asked is i had twin sisters come in and get tatted both lower back same design,and one of them tans alot on a tanning bed..and when i did her tattoo after her twin sisters.i felt a big difference tattooing her,skin alot tougher,took longer to work on had to go slower..

Sorry didn't mean to derail the thread. She can charge whatever. I was just shocked.

Still wondering what size needles your using, what ink, and if you are using any give...

$150 is pretty standard here in Edmonton, its a town full of oil money. Anything under $125 usually gets you an apprentice or a kitchen magician. That being said though you can check out my stuff www.facebook.com/bombshelltattoo.ca if you want!
She is quite tanned, but her skin just feels thicker than normal. Maybe a hot damp towel around it for half an hour before we start? Has anyone tried anything like that?

Sekt, I am using Eikon pre made (not bugpin) 7 curved mags, 11 curved mags, 7 round liner. Colour packers (neo tats) are set to approx 3ml stroke length and liner (micky sharpz) is set 1.5 to 1.8ml. Grey shading (neo tat) is set to 2 to 2.5ml stroke length.
all Eternal inks. I tried reverting back to Intenze for some of the blues as it is a thinner ink than the eternal but it was exactly the same result.
Neo Tat machines, (no elastics) approx 11.5 volts, Micky sharpz with 2 elastics runs at 6.7 to 7 volts.

The tattoos you're doing show promise but that's nowhere near $150 an hour work...you're still more or less an apprentice level tattooer at two years, no matter who you are or what your artistic ability is. Just ask any veteran tattooer, at two years, no matter what you think you have only dipped your toes in the great ocean of tattooing.

A big part of tattooing is recognizing and adapting to different skin types, which is obviously not happening here. Charging someone $150 an hour while you scratch your head is bad for the entire business, not to mention your own reputation.

Here's a good way to determine your hourly value: What does a teacher with two years experience make per hour? An auto mechanic? A dental assistant?

Do you think your time is worth more than theirs? Is your job more difficult? More crucial?

What is "standard" in Edmonton, or what any other tattooer charges per hour should have nothing to do with what you charge. View each job as its own thing, and each client as a unique person with their own challenges/budget/time etc. Keep it flexible like that and you won't need to feel bad about overcharging anyone, because you won't be.

Bruce, I do understand that completely, however 150 is your average, base rate, it was the rate that was set for me by the store owner (I was terrified by this) the day I finished my apprenticeship (may 2011) and I simply have not altered it when I have moved shop as it was also their base entry level rate.
Anything detailed, or that I deem above my level that I want to try for a first time (the tiger or orchids and frogs for example) were done completely free of charge. and I refuse to take on anything that I feel is above me (portraits etc)

I know what you are saying about USD prices though, was looking at getting a tattoo by Scotty Munster and I was SHOCKED to see that he only charges $125 an hour! I could not fathom how an artist of such skill is charging so little, but I guess that is the difference between Canada and the US. I know when I was working in Australia for a few months over christmas I was only charging $80 an hour there (their shop rate). I think its really country specific.
I know the "tattoo school" here in edmonton has a base rate of $65 an hour for their students first tattoos, and $100 an hour thereafter. It really does depend on your locality for what you pay. Dont get me started on your drinks prices! lol

Miss Elizabeth, you should talk to DiarrheaSuitcase about charging lol. I think his rate is about $2 per square inch or 90 for 4-7 hours ! But not everyone has the balls to do what he and his wife do down in Costa- amazing guy. But I think its unfair to talk about your experience, and what you charge, as the thread is about packing.
I had this problem where colour was not going in, and after a while I began to hammer in the colour! I mean I leaned on the machine ! I wasn't getting any damage either, so I stepped up the pressure. don't be afraid to hurt clients! Keep getting harder until you see weeping (not blood), and then back off a bit. Use curved mags for delicate shading, but try round shaders for packing, and less needle group if you have to.

We are mostly in the habit of using a certain pressure, and going outside that feels wrong. I had a woman in with psoriases, and slightest touch she bleeds badly (ankle). So I had to build lines so gently I was hardly touching the skin- like a feather, and this was enough to build lines. She couldn't take anything like a single pass, or she'd need a transfusion. So everyone is different, and I think you need to put your shoulder into it!

There is more to a needle then just being bugpin or not. Your needle diameter and TAPER can make a lot of difference on tougher skin. I suggest you do some research on that before you start blaming everything else then your own knowledge on your materials...

Hi Brat, Like I said what I am using are STANDARD eikon, not their bugpin, I am well aware there are differing tapers or textured needles, but these are not what I am using.

Sekt, thank you very much for offering helpful and friendly advice on this matter. It is with help from each other, that we as artists can grow and learn.

sorry off topic again...Scotty Munster work is just amazing $125 is dirt cheap. I'll pay comfortably 200-250 for his caliber of work.
One of my artists is getting tattooed by him at the Atlanta Tattoo Expo

yeah, I would comfortably pay that also, He is an amazing artist. I love his bugs!

Scotty M does some good stuff! Ive had the same problem with people. Tough dry skin mostly, hard to tattoo, just work on them slow and steady.

I find younger people, especially girls tend to have very "elastic" skin. Maybe you just need to work on a solid three point stretch, or borrow a different machine from a colleague to try out for packing colour.

I would definitely recommend checking out guy aitchisons "reinventing the tattoo" he goes into great detail about getting good stretch in areas like the back of the arm near armpits etc.

I have had this before a few times--have them use cocoa butter on the skin for at least a few days before tattooing,also massage the skin a bit and try to get to get the client drink plenty of water for a few days. Some people have really tough skin due to a lot of outside factors-tanning etc. Put more pressure on the needle without getting crazy. Make sure you do a really good stretch.Dont use to thick of pigment. Slow down your hand speed. Some people have large open pored skin and some have very small tight netted skin -look close at it under a light and you will see. Think of skin as a basket weave- a tight weaved one is hard to poke thru as and the loose weave is easy-a standard super long taper will work better as it will slide in easy but is still strong enough to hold a lasting point.Also switch out your needles after a hour are two as this type of skin can really blunt them quick(which works great for soft skin-like a bullet taper).
Also you might want to switch to a really hard slappy slow running coil-I have one I pull out for skin like this or very large mags-the thing with rotarys is when you use large sizes are have really tough skin you must do the popping in/push as a hard hitting coil slow coil slaps it/pops it in past the outside touch layer.
Hope this helps!:)

im in oregon and $100 is starting rate for most in my area thats about what every one charges to $120 some more and a few in the 200 $250 range. i charge $120 and have been licensed going on three years i wanted to stay at $100 but my boss made me raise my price cause he went to $150 im $120 and the two new guys are $100. but i say it depends where u live and the quality of work u are putting out. seems like people are cheap around here they not like to spend extra on a quality artist but i do have alot of loyal clients so that helps. but its been dead here the last month

oh and if some one wants to look at my work look me up on face book chris higgins black magic tattoos. let me know what u think of my work and is $120 a fair price for the quality of work i put out

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Originally Posted by chris higgins

oh and if some one wants to look at my work look me up on face book chris higgins black magic tattoos. let me know what u think of my work and is $120 a fair price for the quality of work i put out

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Friended Ya and yeah your worth $120.00 per hour.

I have had a few customers where it seemed that no matter what I did the ink would not stay. one of them I went over the color 6 fricken times till i got acceptable results. each time I moved slower and slower too. Sometimes it helps to just do a little at a time. I did ask him to moisture his skin two weeks before any appointment.

Do a little reading up on "langers lines" its a skin grain diagram that will show you what direction the skin is most elastic. Helps you to visualize the direction to pull a drum tight stretch. This is commonly used by plastic surgeons to be able to cut along the grain to help hide scars.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3412/...3ba25e62_o.jpg


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Administrator

Do a little reading up on "langers lines" its a skin grain diagram that will show you what direction the skin is most elastic. Helps you to visualize the direction to pull a drum tight stretch. This is commonly used by plastic surgeons to be able to cut along the grain to help hide scars.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3412/...3ba25e62_o.jpg


sent from my oobnoxiosly large galaxy note phone thing via tapatalk.

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So does it work best to stretch along the line or against the line ??? Just as reference it's a good study.

I had a similar situation with a client and on the second session I switched from eternal black to silverback and used long taper #12's for lining and #12's for shading and her skin took the color much better. Also I did hang the needles out a bit more and slowed down and took time to pay attention to the saturation and my strech. All in all I think my strech could have been better to begin with and the long taper liners in my opinion worked best for her skin type.

For reference my client was a 20yr old very pail skinned young lady. But I did notice her skin was thick and with my normal setup I was getting dull lines.

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Originally Posted by Miss Elizabeth

I am using original neo tats, 7 liner and 7 and 11 curve mags for the shading. I normally run my colour packer anywhere from 10 to 11.5 volts when colour packing, but on her even 12v just does not get the colour solid. I have the long stroke for colour packing (3.5?) and I usually set the needle about .5 back into the tube, and for grey shading I use my standard stroke with the needle almost flush.
And yeah, her last sitting took 2 and a half hours, and I only charged her $125. I am normally $150 an hour, but I feel that this should have been almost finished by now, and we are only less than half way through.
I dont feel it is my machines or needle setup as I have never encountered such issues with getting ink into skin on a regular body part. Its not like its someones rib-cage or stomach, its just an arm. I dont understand why I am having such issues, its like tattooing a rhino I swear!

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Sometimes slowing down can make a big difference. When you run your machines so fast, especially if you have thicker ink, you are essentially making more holes in the skin than ink that is going into them. All that leads to is irritation, and especialy with thick tanned skin, slowing down can be good. Are you trying to get rich color into her tanned skin? How dark is she? Color will not look as vibrant on darker skin, so if she's really tan, don't get yourself crazy trying to get super bright color into her. That's just how it is. It always looks more subtle. As for when I color, I rarely run my machines faster than 8.5 for coloring, though sometimes I set them around 9.8 but it depends on my technique that I'm using as well as what ink. In a way, going slower has made me faster - I feel more efficient.

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Originally Posted by Miss Elizabeth

$150 is pretty standard here in Edmonton, its a town full of oil money. Anything under $125 usually gets you an apprentice or a kitchen magician. That being said though you can check out my stuff www.facebook.com/bombshelltattoo.ca if you want!
She is quite tanned, but her skin just feels thicker than normal. Maybe a hot damp towel around it for half an hour before we start? Has anyone tried anything like that?

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For Edmonton, $150 isn't bad at all. Here in Toronto, the rates are from $120 in the little shops on the outskirts of town, to about $200 in the downtown core. I know people charging $180/hour as junior artists because that's the shop rate. Especially if the shop is on a very busy street for foot traffic. You start undercutting, and pretty soon you'll have a brick thrown through your window in some places. I've also worked in towns where the shop rate is $70/hour, but here is the difference:

Town with $70/hr rate: 2 bedroom townhouse = $645/month
City with $150 - $200/hr rate: 2 bedroom townhouse = $1,800+ /month

I'd tell this client to stop tanning if she wants to get tattooed - do you know if she exposes her fresh tattoos to the tanning bed? That sure doesn't help matters. She technically should be waiting longer than 2 weeks to go tanning after a getting a fresh tattoo. She might not be doing that. Even if she 'claims' to be doing that, she might not be - she could be embarassed to tell you that she is messing up her own stuff.

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Originally Posted by Baldrick

So does it work best to stretch along the line or against the line ??? Just as reference it's a good study.

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As far as that drawing goes, I've used those principles when stretching and it works quite well. Say, on the area just above the knee - it stretches quite fantastically in a north/south manner to allow for the bend of the body part, right? So, if you try to stretch the skin in that direction, it will stretch a lot, and you'll have to work harder to get the pigment in. If you stretch east and west, against the grain so to say, you'll get a tighter stretch with less work because the skin is working with you better. With this in mind, you'll see that the lines on the front of the knees go east and west, which is the way I would stretch. Try it! Even if you are just stretching your own skin to draw on yourself with a ballpoint pen.

Hi Alie, thanks for the verification on the rates there, I was starting to feel like I was some kind of pirate. lol.
She is tanned but not dark skinned. Here is a pic of some of it, all the background needs to get done still but as you can see, her skin appears really textured? Not hugely tanned but thick. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater Sorry about the link size.
I will try slowing down and the hot water in my wash bottles for the next sitting. I have spent so much time with her over the last 6 months we have become pretty good friends, so her sittings are getting cheaper and cheaper, and she also acknowledged that her skin simply does not take the ink so she is willing to try pretty much anything to get this done quicker (she is also a bit of a girl when it comes to pain, lol)

Buy a Centri!

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Originally Posted by Cyberitual

Buy a Centri!

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Lol , at $150 an hour you can get several.

I noticed that you said you are using 7's to line with. I'm in ky, AMD we have quite a few farmers and country boys in my area. Many of them have skin like rhino hide from years of out door work. I've run into the issue of poor lines and lack luster saturation when using some groupings that are tightly packed ,but itseemed to go away when I dropped down a grouping size. Lining with 3's and 5's and packing with 5's , shading with 7's . It really helped. This was using a bishop, so very simmilar to neotats. Dunno if this will help ya. But hope it will

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Originally Posted by Miss Elizabeth

Sekt, I am using Eikon pre made (not bugpin) 7 curved mags, 11 curved mags, 7 round liner. Colour packers (neo tats) are set to approx 3ml stroke length and liner (micky sharpz) is set 1.5 to 1.8ml. Grey shading (neo tat) is set to 2 to 2.5ml stroke length.

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See I think that is the problem right there- 3ml is too short a stroke. I'd go with a stroke length of 4.2 mm for black, or colour packing. 3mm or 2.6mm is fine for b+g work, but the needle travels faster with a stroke of 4.2mm. Think of it like this.. hold a sheet of paper up, and push a needle through it. It wont go through because the paper will bend. Now try to stab the paper with the needle- it'll go through because the paper can't react fast enough to bend. Same on soft spongy female skin, it has lots of give, and needs speed not power to puncture the skin.

2 years or 22 years in it is awkward having to have to deal with skin issues mid session, and everyone I've ever spoken with (who's been honest) has had something at some point. Thin tight papery skin that has seen years of sun or wrinkly armpit skin, super dry foot skin, whatever. I asked a client to rub her skin with cold pressed flax or avocado oil every day for a week before I could work on her skin because it seemed so thin and weak, and another client lied about having leptospirosis or some other weird cattle disease that caused a whole sleeve to infect. Whether they are urban legend or not, there are stories of people who simple reject color even after repeated tries...I think Keith Richards might have been named in one of those stories...something how he got the same piece 3 times by 3 different artists and it never stayed.

I'm pretty sure the Keith Richards thing has to do with blood alcohol content :p People that do a lot of drinking don't take ink as well as they should. For the drunks they are typically low on potassium so the best advice for frequent drinkers is a lot of jello, bananas or potato chips, to boost their vitamin K.

I one the other hand rarely ever drink any more, but my skin is like this and it took awhile to figure out what worked to keep it in all the way to completely healed. Every tattoo I have solid fields in has been redone at least 3 times that is; until I finally found the magic bullet combination over a decade ago.

Lining on me is fine no matter the setup; although a fast and punchy machine is best. Solid fields are another story. On my skin it requires slowing down hand speed not the voltage, an angle of about 30-35 degrees instead of 45ish, and short taper is an absolute must; anything else and my skin is going to laugh at you. A drop or two of distilled in really thick pigments is also a good idea only if my skin is taking a particular color a little too slowly.

Be extra careful when you run into my skin type because if you don't use what I described above you are either going to have ink falling out when it heals or chew it up trying to get it in there. Although, a short taper and good pigment is the most important remedy.

Now to buy more bananas!

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