Dragon fly 'replica' pics

Hi Guys, Dunno if this is the right place to put these or if its a free for all in this section. Being curious about the knockoff machine I sent for 2 from the main supplier in Hongkong. The minimum order from them is 10 Machines but as I wanted to see how they worked and the quality etc they agreed to send just the 2 for starters.
Now it is my intention at somepoint to purchase the real thing 'wether by trade or cash' So I thought I'd prepare to compare as they say. I got a brass/yellow and a green 1. As I only have pics of an original the first thing I've noticed is that the motor is gripped in place with only 2 Grubscrews Where as the DF has I think 4 from what I can see. Also these machines have no particular polarity set up with regards to coding the back hence now having a dab on 1 of the posts of My partners red nail varnish ...No seriousley...it does belong to the missus! (cough) ...

Not sure if I'm allowed to post the Price paid for these (Considerably a lot less than they are selling on ebay for) So if anyone wants to hit me up and there a regular contributor to the boards I'll have no problem sharing. They seem pretty well balanced and run from approx 7 volts up. Adjustable through the top screw which you'd expect and has a good resistance. (How long for is anyones guess) At some point over the next week or so I'll try em out and try get a few pics up. And note: these were purchased out of curiosity before taking the plunge on the real thing, Not to sell on and make some poor guy think he's getting a bargain at a discount from the original cost of a DF.

I have also taken a video of these running on a Danny Harkins Anologue Tattoo supply that uses The Dave long electrics system from Canada. Once I find the Docking staion for it I'll upload the footage.

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I don't know what to say...
To each it's own.
Let's not make this site become the pirate bay of knock offs.

There is pretty good google ranking pointing to this site when you search for rotary tattoo machines.
I wouldn't want to encourage anyone into buying knock offs.

One thing is to make someone aware about a knock off and another thing is to have full reviews and encouragement to buy them.
I think non of the builders here would like to see their machine knocked off on this site and seeing that there are followers that would
buy them.

That would be the end of many of us, builders on this site.
I can't imagine the amount of work and money DragonFly spent to create their machines.
Anyone with a hint of respect should stay away from "non originality"

This is just my opinion.
I may be wrong

I agree the site shoudlnt be a promotion place for the knock offs sure, and my comment about how much they cost etc was really to point out that the money involved on my behalf is not about buying to sell etc, I wasnt sure where to put the thread and I'd be happy if it was moved behind closed doors so to speak hence my opening sentence on the thread.

I want to show folk on here that it is a genuine 'buyer beware' issue. From a distance they may look like the real thing but when you get a good close up of the machine rather than the Auction site pics people get to satisfy that curiousity of how its built/Build quality etc without having to part with the dollars! Its also interesting for those builders who have been ripped to see closer up what effort if any has gone into the knock offs but dont as of yet have 1 to hand to comment further. If they are looking in I'll happily email em pics from whatever angle they want to see it.

Its sad that I know many many working professionals that will still buy this junk because they feel its less committal. They buy a stealth, a swash knock off or whatever junk is popular at the time on ebay. Use it tell people it works pretty well and then maybe some will move on to buy something better. All the while they are telling other people they picked up this cheap rotary on ebay and its pretty good.

Discussing the knock off designs is not a bad thing especially since there are enough people on here that will admit they made the mistake and can tell people what the shortfalls are. When I have time this week I will just make a subforum for the reviews section that is not visible to public traffic where you can discuss the junk machines. If the discussions make you really angry and start fights I will advise you ad that sub forum to your ignore list. The public will not see the info only the membership.

Fantastic idea!

Debate is definately healthy, Both the ugly side of this Craft and the beautiful side. I dont wish to promote this stuff but merely allow those thinking about it to make an informed decision on the quality they are letting themselves in for.. Knock off/Counterfeit whatever you want to call it will be here long after we are gone as it always has been. I'm sure there will be guys on here as elsewhere that will be voiceing opinions on the garbage and at the same time ordering them by the dozen to flog on to others! That is a sad fact of life. Nothing anymore is sacred!.... Oh and sorry Admin for making more work for ya! Re: a subforum. I'm sure it will prosper lol. :o

Not more work at all, I just need a few minutes to do it since I need to set permissions for it so only membership can see it. If i dont focus on what I am doing when I add it I can break things... it happens from time to time.

I don't see the problem with so called knockoff machines every machine is a knockoff.The best I can tell the swash, Swiss and neo tat were original the rest of you bit off them in some way or another. Is your machine totally original did you steal an idea when you seen another machine? You can tattoo with a sewing needle the machine just makes it faster and easier. Why do people buy from china because you builders have maybe 100 tied up in one build and that's if your not mass producing and selling for 500 that's why. Im out to make my family money not a machine builder who thinks he has invented the next best thing. Bottom line is lower you prices and you wont have to worry about china!!!

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Originally Posted by chris

I don't see the problem with so called knockoff machines every machine is a knockoff.The best I can tell the swash, Swiss and neo tat were original the rest of you bit off them in some way or another. Is your machine totally original did you steal an idea when you seen another machine? You can tattoo with a sewing needle the machine just makes it faster and easier. Why do people buy from china because you builders have maybe 100 tied up in one build and that's if your not mass producing and selling for 500 that's why. Im out to make my family money not a machine builder who thinks he has invented the next best thing. Bottom line is lower you prices and you wont have to worry about china!!!

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The problem with fake copies is they didn't spend the money doing the research or the hard work designing the machines, good builders dont copy but improve on designs. And whats $500 if you can make thousands and thousands off of that one machine. Usually copies are made with cheaper parts and dont last as long. Bottom line is if your to cheap to pay for a cadillac go buy a honda! Sorry but i dont mean to be offensive but builders spend alot of time and money building quality machines
for us artist to use and the machinery is not cheap, try pricing a cnc machine!

What these people are doing is waiting for someone to invest energy, time and money so they can come and steal a design/ mechanism to profit off your hard work. Screw that however you look at it.

I know Chris and Hikmet personally and know that they have spent hours and hours of time before releasing this machine. I even had the chance to see one of their earlier protos at Max's from Evil Twins, which happens the artists that helped helped with the making.

To just come and snatch all the work without sweating a drop is completely unfair, unethical, and should not belong to this industry.
It is as bad or worse than having someones work in your portfolio.

Improving an idea is completely different than cloning a copycat.
I wouldn't be surprise, if worldwide tattoo is behind the crime.

copying a copy just lessens the quality it reminds me of that movie multiplicity where he copies himself then copies make copies and they just become dumer and dumber

Seen them on egay... now going for £125 to £150....in my experience of chinese rip off they are probably worth the amount of the last 2 numbers...£25 to £50 if you are lucky!..all that built in brazil or whatever is bullshit just a mask to hide the true identity...when the suckers buying these end up with a burnt out motor in 2 months time they will realise they fucked up......

now I'm going to play devils advocate, how many of use buy store brand? weather it be cold meds,food, etc.. I'm guilty I buy store brand. and the store is no different, they copy Tylenol,minute maid, etc, I'm just saying .Me personally I have not bought a knock off machine since I picked up the stealth which at the time I didn't know it was a fake, and I wont.
After using a really well made rotary I cant use a cheap one. this is in no way a post to support crap but just standing back looking in.

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Originally Posted by elbo

Seen them on egay... now going for £125 to £150....in my experience of chinese rip off they are probably worth the amount of the last 2 numbers...£25 to £50 if you are lucky!..all that built in brazil or whatever is bullshit just a mask to hide the true identity...when the suckers buying these end up with a burnt out motor in 2 months time they will realise they fucked up......

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Will be interesting to see in a few months if the ebay sellers will be doing a refund/repair service or just ignore the buyers completely..... I reckon the latter!! lol.

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Originally Posted by gangstajay

now I'm going to play devils advocate, how many of use buy store brand? weather it be cold meds,food, etc.. I'm guilty I buy store brand. and the store is no different, they copy Tylenol,minute maid, etc, I'm just saying .Me personally I have not bought a knock off machine since I picked up the stealth which at the time I didn't know it was a fake, and I wont.
After using a really well made rotary I cant use a cheap one. this is in no way a post to support crap but just standing back looking in.

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...Jay most often those products under store brands are actually made by the real manufacturer but sold under spec and un branded...its their way of cornering all markets....

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Originally Posted by Ta2GeezerUK

Will be interesting to see in a few months if the ebay sellers will be doing a refund/repair service or just ignore the buyers completely..... I reckon the latter!! lol.

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....i agree they are quick buck merchants with no after sales...

What ever happened to the guy who had a neotat that the finish was coming off??? we all agreed he bought it from tattoorite so it could be fake????...has he been back on here? or was it a fake and he dont want to say he fucked up????

He did post pics, if it is a knock off. Well then it is a new neo tat clone that is actually very close. That would be unfortunate.

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Originally Posted by elbo

...Jay most often those products under store brands are actually made by the real manufacturer but sold under spec and un branded...its their way of cornering all markets....

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ahh ok, always seemed like they were ripping the name brand off

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Originally Posted by gangstajay

ahh ok, always seemed like they were ripping the name brand off

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wasnt being shitty mate mate but knew a guy who dealt with the inbetween with manufactuers and big supermarkets....the super markets they buy from big name brands but get it a little under spec and unbranded so it aint so cool....they all get the best of both...not like the chinese fuckers who rape the world.

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Originally Posted by elbo

...Jay most often those products under store brands are actually made by the real manufacturer but sold under spec and un branded...its their way of cornering all markets....

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your spot on that one mark ,my half brother has be a manager of a local grocery store for like the last 15 years and he told me years ago that the alot of the name brand companys do that so they can also get sells from people that dont have alot of money.

Well if a rotary is doing its jobb then its a good machine. Why pay $700 ? Its sad how builders charge so muvh money for a machine. To me and many a rotary is a rotary and to price it at $700 is sad IMO. I dont like most but some are built well amd run well like stealth is a perfect rotary at a good price with parts avalibal to buy. Hard to hate it cause it runs smooth as any other, its not a knock off its its own machine. Just like coils, a machine is a machine an a rotary is a motor and yes cheap rotarys have motors that will go in a year or 2 but very cheap to buy another. Got to admit a rotary is a rotary so pick up the stealth and the swiss and compare hit, sound smoothness and you will see there very alike but one will last longer and is way way more money. I own my own shop an d $700 a machine is like they dont understand economy and how much most make now days so yes some will buy the cheaper machine but cheaper money wise thats it. Lets face the facts people. A coil is a machine cause it is tuned and any coil can run great with tuning.

Gaston make allot cause he tune like a god and he can tune any machine like he does or he would not be. i sorry i dont mean to be a dic$ or piss guys/gals off i just speak my opinion

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Originally Posted by Neo

Well if a rotary is doing its jobb then its a good machine. Why pay $700 ? Its sad how builders charge so muvh money for a machine. To me and many a rotary is a rotary and to price it at $700 is sad IMO. I dont like most but some are built well amd run well like stealth is a perfect rotary at a good price with parts avalibal to buy. Hard to hate it cause it runs smooth as any other, its not a knock off its its own machine. Just like coils, a machine is a machine an a rotary is a motor and yes cheap rotarys have motors that will go in a year or

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Stealth is a copy of the Swiss machine..

you get what you pay for end of, theres a reason the clones look just like the real deal because thats what there ment to do ...... if you have a good rotary machine in its own right then there is no need to copy the style of an established brand , the only reason to do this is to boost the profile of your bag"o"crap !

we all know the industry is all over the place but i like to think that the guy making my machine is putting as much effort and respect into it as i am when i use it , and if that peace of mind costs me £500 then so be it

just my opinion and all that :P

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Originally Posted by Neo

Gaston make allot cause he tune like a god and he can tune any machine like he does or he would not be. i sorry i dont mean to be a dic$ or piss guys/gals off i just speak my opinion

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I am Definitely nowhere close to a God!! Let's make that clear. :D

In general:
To accept a knock off is like tracing someone else's tattoo and get at it. Why would I create a tattoo when it's already done!....right??? In fact after you are done you can also put it on your portfolio and claim that you are the original designer.....

Whatever suits your morals. If you have a bit of respect for the people that are a true asset in this industry innovating and providing us with great tools then you know the answer.
If you are just here to get by then ignore all the above and have fun.

I get pissed every time I see a knock off of my machines or any machine. It's like being raped with no lube. Only rapped by three girls in high school :D

wow i thought i was on the nick baxter forum for a second there.

Well Gaston , 1st You ARE a GOD !!!! Your coils are amazing machines and your skill is beyond talent. I love how you tune your machines and to me your a machine god haha but 4 real

I do understand what you mean 100%. I would get pissed if someone came in my shop snatching my artwork off the walls and making a copy. I just think $500 and up is a little to much thats all, some knockoffs like stealth run just as well as the swiss with the hit and the smoothness, not as great but close and for one to be hundreds more is sad to me. Its a motor and parts , Anyway i understand what you mean and that does suck. Atleast they could copy the basics and make a different looking machine haha.

Well gaston i look forward to using your rotary very soon !! I dont buy the crap knockoffs , Its just i compared a few and they ran very much the same. I stick with real machines from real builders like yourself. Have a great X-mass / holidays gaston.

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Originally Posted by turnrock

wow i thought i was on the nick baxter forum for a second there.

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Not quite dude but i know what you mean! :D

The problem with buying a knock off, who are you going to contact to solve a problem when it comes about, Are you going to call some person in the middle of China. If we continue to buy everything from China we all are going to be out of jobs. The quality of the motors are sub standard and wil not last near as long as a well built machine. But to each their own buy to save and in the long run you will see your art go down hill. Would you want a doctor to cut you open with a substandard scalpel or a sharp German made one?

And in contrast Germany still has a lot of its own industry. For example if I need bearings, there is a factory maybe 1.5 Kilometers from my shop. It is amazing how much stuff is still made here.

i paid the money for the real deal. my shit got stolen and i paid the money again. knock offs suck even if they stole ur idea. i'm sure Gaston has seen the knock offs of his machines and i bought an AL13. all they do is make it look like a machine that is known and liked and then they make a shit version. i can only speak for myself, but i think any true artists wouldn't waste the short change on a knock off. you gotta know it's gonna be shit and not perform the same. machines pay for themselves over and over and over... then you sell them if don't want it anymore and they hold there value well if they are the real deal. why fuck around with bullshit cheezedick stolen idea machines? spend the fucking money; these guys work hard and the machines are the proof in the pudding. thank you to all the builders for your hard work whether I plan on buying your machine or not, I'm sure someone will and love you for it.

I wonder how many real deal construction contractors buy tools at Harbor Freight? they sell cheap Chinese knock-offs of high quality tools. I think serious craftsmen know the value of having high quality reliable tools with which to ply their trade...A cheesy chinese knock off might look the same and run okay at best; but when it craps out on you, who looks like a fool for having to tear down and set-up a new machine because yours just BROKE? You can bet top dollar that if anything isn't just right on a $700 machine that you can call the manufacturer and they'll do they're best to solve your issue ASAP. It's hard to put a price on good customer service, and the security of the knowledge that you have a machine that someone poured their heart into and that they stand behind proudly.

Just got some Chinese Tattoo Supply Spam , whole top row of cheapo machines were Dragonfly knock offs.

oh you know they are worldwide tattoo has copied all of your machines bro

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Originally Posted by elbo

Seen them on egay... now going for £125 to £150....in my experience of chinese rip off they are probably worth the amount of the last 2 numbers...£25 to £50 if you are lucky!..all that built in brazil or whatever is bullshit just a mask to hide the true identity...when the suckers buying these end up with a burnt out motor in 2 months time they will realise they fucked up......

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i can say that. Machines made in Brazil are still hand made, just a few produces in medium/large scale and still their own machines. I never saw a copycat being sold by manufacturers, only by scratcher´s shops. If someone here asks me about the swashs, neo tats copys, i´m glad to say, don´t buy it! Doesn´t worth your money, save some and buy the real deal. The DFs copy...oh my, they´re everywhere

and about the knock offs...i don´t put my name and tattoing time on a crap tool. Good tools are expensive, you can do a skull with anything you want, coal, ballpen, piss and mud, but if you want to do some better skull you need to spend the cash...watercolor, oil, marker, canvas, wathever.My point is i can do a skull drawing on the floor but why i should do that if i can do better? my two cents