The Bisahop

[PAWNJOB]

I have a cranker on the way we will see thanks for the input man I by no means think I know everything but I use rotarys everyday and am constantly trying to figure out what makes them tick and what techniques make them more efficient

I feel the exact same way man, thank YOU. Love this forum. I've never been into forums at all but I'm addicted. I'm on here all the time the last couple months. I feel like I've gained a wealth of information from all of you guys.

Please let me know how it goes with the Crancker. Lining has definitely been my biggest problem with rotaries, or coils for that matter. :-) The Crankers get a lot of mention around here! Anxious to hear how you like it and how it compares to your other machines. Sounds like we work with a similar set up. I use my Spektra and Capo almost exclusively as of late.


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[G.Graves]

Both of you make great points (paw job and Joel) but there are to many variables for us to truly put you finger on it, that's why it's a grey area.
I have used machines with give and no give, to out line tattoos.
But when I look back at what was the sweetest lining machine I've used (and still do) it's the 3.5 neo Vivace. Even when working on the ribs I get good lines.
It's not as easy to line with a Rotory, but the rewards are worth it. Super black lines that look like you drew them on with a sharpie

In the end, it's what works for you at the time, everyone changes and progress's. some people like to line slow and low, other need it fast and zippy. One thing is for sure, there is a machine out there for you and this is the best forum in the world to find them!!!

I like to line on the slow side, just filling in the skin as good as I can, making it even and as saturated as possible! Or I'll build up line work with little passes, which gets a good saturated look, I only do this when I need line weight though.

I'm loving the dragon fly long stoke to line with as well, it does move slow, but that's how I like it, plus I can just turn it up when I want to move faster. Lol...

I do believe the capo hits hard, but it's not snappy, so it's smooth which might make it feel soft........

[skinmech]

Before I jump in to this discussion....Think this...Say a Builder builds two Identical Machines, and fits one with a Nanco motor, and the other with a Maxon Motor, both have the same stroke length, say 3.5mm for arguments sake...Taking into account voltage, will both machines have the same force of hit...

PS..I was fortunate to have used one of Joels Bishop, and have ran various stroke Rotaries...This could be a very interesting, and informative thread...

[joelhague]

I feel the exact same way man, thank YOU. Love this forum. I've never been into forums at all but I'm addicted. I'm on here all the time the last couple months. I feel like I've gained a wealth of information from all of you guys 2

Haha tell me about it I have a link to the forums on the homepage of my phone you should see the looks I get from my girlfriend when we are at the grocery store and I'm on here looking at tattoo stuff hahaha


I agree with you both g graves and skinmech , your right any machine with a different motor would perform a little different then the original but how much is the debate its still got all the same working mechanics
The difference I think a lot of people would feel would probably just be due to the voltages being different and the sweet spot changing I mean a machine can only run so fast or hard before it vibrates and rattles too much so putting a super powerfull 6v motor on something like this bishop would it really make it perform that much different or would you just be running it on lower volts and getting the same effect I think what makes the spektra feel different is the faster down stroke and the slight give that mimics a soft grommet even when using a solid rubber one

Have any of you watched the rotary review by Keith ciaramello you can purchase it on his site after seeing that it really opened my eyes to how rotary machines work and what makes each one different from the next and the truth is a lot are the same and feel the same in the skin they are just in a different frame or body with different bells and whistles but a lot of them all work the same

[skinmech]

Ok...I will jump in, Please bear in mind these are my opinions.. ...The Bishop does not have the same force of hit as say a comparative Machine such as the Neotat long stroke, it has the same mechanics, but not the same force to penetrate skin within the same voltage band,....This comes down to torque, the easiest way to explain torque is this....Lets pretend we have a sprint race, between a 19 stone (270 pound) Rugby Player, and a 10 Stone (140 pound) Athlete...The Rugby Player is placed 100 yards behind the Athlete, and the Rugby Player runs first...When he passes the Athlete, then the Athlete can join the Race....Torque is the momentum built up as the Rugby Player passes the Athlete...The Athlete is speed, the Rugby Player is torque.....Did any one follow that,LOL

[PAWNJOB]

Mmm...

How bout referring to an adjustable torque drill. You turn it up to 20 and it delivers all the torque you can stand (let's say 30 lbs. of torque?), turn it down to 1 and you still have the exact same speed but as soon as it meets any resistance (let's say more than 1 lbs.) it disengages the drive to the bit - low torque. Set it to 10 and you might need 15 lbs of resistance to disengage the bit - it would deliver 15 lbs of torque.

[slicksteel]

I would also think the weight of the slider(like neo,bishop)or how long the actual crank bar is(like a df or rapier) the more weight/size on the the slider such as a blitz its going to be louder due to more surface area touching and more downward punch. also the stroke length and the actual cam size would play a part. i do now that you can have a lot of torque and no speed that you will have to push the needle in to get it started like joel said.

[PAWNJOB]

I do believe the capo hits hard, but it's not snappy, so it's smooth which might make it feel soft........

I agree! I would think that "snappy" is referring to the velocity or acceleration of the downstroke, and the amount of weight or force behind the needle would refer to the torque. I gotta believe the harder downstoke of the Spektra having a different speed or velocity than the upstroke causes much of it's vibrations, but it's a very effective machine. The Capo having a more consistent speed throughout the entire revolution would naturally produce a smoother, and therefore softer hit as it pertains to velocity at least, NOT torque. Though the torque (or lack there of) of the Capo's motor allows for a decent amount of give by itself through most of the usable voltage range, it definitely hits hard as hell when it's cranked up, no give to speak of at that point. "Smooth" is definitely the word to describe the Capo!

When you look at the stroke of a coil machine the a-bar keeps accelerating until it collides with the coil core. Rotaries have a more consistent speed throughout the stroke. Add a spring for dampening and now you've got an even slower downstroke and faster upstroke for most rotaries. I think that's really what defines the hit of a coil machine and why so many people prefer it for lining (the velocity). But maybe that stroke profile is just a little too aggressive for shading and that's why we really like the extra torque and smoother hit of our rotaries. It's a much more precise hit with rotaries without give, and maybe that's why they're so effective and efficient for shading and every other aspect of tattooing aside from lining for some people. I don't know if I'm buying too much into this faster downstroke of the Spektra but it sounds legit and it sure feels like it when I'm using it. I think that as we advance and perfect the technology and mechanisms for rotaries to achieve a snappier downstroke that you'll really see coils being left in the dust as it pertains to lining. This maybe the last real hurdle for rotary builders.

[BananaJuicey]

Which stroke length did you get? It's an awesome machine but I don't use it for lining unless it's on the top of the foot or a fat person's calf. In my opinion it's a little on the slow side with too soft of a hit for lining. I've only tried the the 3.6 though, I imagine you'd have a better time lining if you were using the 4 mm stroke. Great little shader though, nice and smooth!

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i got the 3.5 stroke, I've used it for lining, shading & colour packing, I agree its a little slower for lining, Im used to lining quite fast, but slowing down isnt such a bad thing I feel like the Bishop has made me slow down & think about what Im doing a bit more.
Think I'll be ordering a 4.2 very soon

[devans]

OH BLIMEY................ I just swaped to rotarys to simplify things .