Yeah i got the old timer, i use same 4 machines everyday.. Neo vivace, old timer, rotaryworks I.D and rotaryworks 12v all 4 are no give, but all totally different... I think you can do anything with that set and i see from skinmech's post he agrees with basically same set (-the neo and a triple instead of standard 12v) i prefer the dd and ddo's personal opinion but i dont use any "give" machines.