could t tech be the cause for back springs snapping?

[mattstopps]

hi
over the past months i have almost totally switched between a classic needle
& grip setup to using t tech cartridges and grips. simply for the speed between changing cartridges and using both coils and rotaries.
since using the t tech grips and cartridges I've snapped 4 back springs. on two of my coil machines, both liners from tattoo me.
before using t tech i never had this problem. now the simple solution would be to stop using them and go back to a normal set up, but after investing in many boxes of cartridges i want to solve the problem.
i can't figure out what I'm doing wrong, could it be the pressure from pushing the cartridge has caused stress and snapped the back spring?
as far i know I'm not running the machines too high they operate at 145HERTZ 6V ?
i know this is a coil problem but any help or info would be appreciated.
matt

[cagelavey]

yeah, probably, they say when using coils you have to up the spring gauge a bit, and change spring tension. never used with coils, but have heard some of this same stuff happening, got to make slight changes to set-up

[mattstopps]

yeah that makes sense, thanks for the reply. ill search for some tougher back springs and see how they cope. hopefully that will solve it.

[jasonadelinia]

How are you setting up your coils? You do need a stronger back spring and also need to tune it to compensate for the pressure of the elastic band. I've used a coil with ttech for about 9 months and had no problems at all.

[mattstopps]

well I've been using the standard back springs that came from the manufacturer,(tattoome) which I've replaced, only to find they snap a week or two later. however in yesterdays case it snapped the very next day on a new machine. i adjusted the contact screws when using the t tech parts, and dropped the volts slightly, as my machines are build to run between 5-7v. so the machines tuned as far as i could tell, and puts in a lovely solid line no problem, no issues when tattooing, until the breaks. .. i can't help but feel it is a case of finding some thicker back springs, so far I've been replacing them with the same spring set. ill order some different springs and see how that works out.

[skinmech]

I run carts on my Coils sometimes...I have never had a rear spring snap, tattoome machines run pretty hard, so replacing the rear spring with thicker gauge, means you will need to increase your voltage to compensate for this, you may also need to increase the gauge on your front, I am pretty sure tattoome run 20's, so you could try a 22/23 on the rear and keep the 20 upfront...You could check the length of your throw, and maybe shorten it if possible...The less volts you use the better...Is it tattoome spring stock you are using..? Try Frank@Wildangel, or lemme know the measurements , and I will cut you a few, I always cut my own Springs..Video showing one of my rebuilds running carts..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONawJPZi_aI

[No Iron Machines]

CARTRIDGE they not for coils, machines never gonna run good, and get hot like hell easy,

SKINMECH, show how many AMPERE gonna absorb your machine with the cartridge, and let me see at how many volts u can pull a line with 9 needles

[No Iron Machines]

OH I FORGOT,trow up this chinese cart, and use T-TECH or CHEYENNE, becouse is what the people use about CART, that have more resistence on the push needles back, and show how many ampere absorb the machines please

[skinmech]

When I run Carts I use t-tech, I use the Chinese ones when uploading a video, as they are a lot cheaper...If I remember, I will get a video of it running showing amps,but, I also need to use a different p/s...Maybe my farnell,LOL...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHqubSUnbjI

[cagelavey]

id try some 18 gauge springs top and bottom

[No Iron Machines]

thanx for the video, but i mean post a video of one of your COILS MACHINES push a TTECH or CHEYENNE original cart and show how many ampere absorb

all the coils machines u can try pushing cart they gonna absorb and get hot, thats no secret, specially for done outline, so the CART cant work fine with coils, NO WAY

[skinmech]

I know what you mean No Iron, as I said, you need to wait until next time I use carts, and have a suitable power supply, not all power supplies show Amps....I disagree that Coil Machines get hot running carts, if the Machine is tuned and set up correctly, it doesn't overheat....All depends on the Machine, Coils and Tuning......

In addition, I personally, wouldn't run 18's as they could run too slow...Depending on the Machine, I find a 20 rear, and 20 cutback upfront to be the best combo...

[cagelavey]

the 20s are whats breaking though, right? unless I miss understood

[skinmech]

I think he is using og Spring stock, so Starett or BSI gauge is better quality...An 18 front could offer too much flex, and not enough tension, the down side of that, is it would need more volts to compensate for the spring within the cart, this would only increase force of hit, not speed...An 18 cutback offers more tension than a conventional length 18 front spring,but, I found it still ran pretty slow when running carts...

[No Iron Machines]

GET HOT, NO WAY MAN, look how many resistance have the ORIGINAL CHEYENNE CART, need lot of power to push this shit with a COILS, maybe u can shading soft, but for push a thick line, example for old school tattoos, maybe a 9-14 loose, u gonna go very high on volts, and machines easy gonna absorb more than 0.5 ampere, and get hot easy, try all u want, thats no secret man, is the OHM LAW,

machine that absorb more than half ampere get hot fast, NO WAY, good luck

[slicksteel]

I second that what skin mech says a 20 backspring and 20 cutback work great. But you must use very good spring stock that is flexible. Good spring stock should snap back and not be brittle. Also putting a nice smooth lightly rounded fulcrum points on the frame and abar helps with a cart setup to not get snapped springs. Also how much pressure you are pushing your needles out makes a big difference in how it runs. They needles need a bit of forward tension but to much will cause a lot of back pressure against the abar that will make it harder to push them out. This will cause more back pressure on the rear spring and make the machine use more volts to pull the bar down. This will cause a shorter stroke. Personally i would not use hawk carts as they require to much pressure to run easy on a coil machine.

[mattstopps]

thanks for your help guys, I'm not totally sure on gauges of the springs I've been using. however they are the stock tattoome springs that came with the machines, and i replaced them with the same stock springs which came as spares.
i spoke to a machine builder yesterday and we spoke about the problem, he mentioned he'd heard numerous times that the coils i use are too powerful and have a lot of tension, the back springs snap easily.
so given the fact I'm using carts gives good reason to why the springs are breaking so often.
i emailed the coil builder and they said they have heard a few people have had the same problem and that the machines need adjustments , some fine tuning, and (in my case id imagine i need to try 20 and 20 springs to compensate for the carts.)
the builder said he could take a look for me in sept when he's in the uk and sort them for me, and they will send me new springs once in stock. although these will snap again I'm sure if I'm using carts.
if someone could recommend some good springs that would be great and ill try fix it myself for the time being.
Skinmech thanks for your offer i may take you up on that as the back spring is far shorter than any of my spares and i don't have the tools or manliness to cut metal myself.ha
the positive side to this is that whilst my coils are out of action, i have no choice but to learn to line with my rotary. i had the bearing repaired by iain at rotary works on a springer mk2 and have not been able to use it until now.so I'm looking forward to giving that a go.
so ill put the time in to learn to line with that.
thanks

[jasonadelinia]

CARTRIDGE they not for coils, machines never gonna run good, and get hot like hell easy,

SKINMECH, show how many AMPERE gonna absorb your machine with the cartridge, and let me see at how many volts u can pull a line with 9 needles

I push 14 liner ttech just fine with my fk coil at around 4.7-5 volts. I have my machines on constant too and it NEVER gets hot. Runs like a dream. Set it up right and you won't have any problems using cartridges.

[skinmech]

No probs, I have plenty of stock, so keep in touch... 25810

[No Iron Machines]

hey JASON, can u have chance to post a video of the FK pushing cart ? very interested, becouse i try with many many different coil machines to push cart, all need go very high with volts and run weird, even with SUNSKIN machines that are strong like hell, same shit

u have a POWER SUPPLY that read also ampere ??? to understand how absorb the machine

COOL....

[skinmech]

Sunskin coils are poorly made....Only saying....I rebuild coil machines most days, and I don't rate Sunskin Machines any more....This is based on experience, knowledge and evidence....The Layers/Wraps are very poor and uneven, the picture Wrap hides the mistakes...

[No Iron Machines]

SUNSKIN are good machines man, how can u say that, are one of the only machines that can run FAST and STRONG, people done big japanese stuff, like SHIGE EAST TATTOO, KOSTAS, YANG ZHUO, FILIP LEU use also too some , using a lot for pushing big magnum, u can go faster than any other machines, i don like to much SUNSKIN, but are very well done machines man, MICHY SHARPZ and MICKY BEE are finish many years ago....

[skinmech]

Sunskin are going down the same road as Sharpz and Bee.....Older machines are better....

[No Iron Machines]

they sale more than 3000 machines per year, more and more, thye not go donw man, believe me,
i don like SUNSKIN too, but are very well done and run smooth forever, is true

[cagelavey]

Simply put it is mostly up to your personal tastes as a Tattoo Artist but the general rule of thumb is the thicker the spring the faster it will go, so for example you may use .013 - .018 for a shader and .017- .022 for a liner, you may also change the gauges between the main (back) and timing (front spring) but generally only within .002 eg. .018 main .020 timing. its all personal preference. I do know that if you try some better stock springs and still have problems, there is o harm in trying 18g springs. I have a high hand speed and have always liked 18g springs and the jump in voltage is not surmountable enough that it should prove problematic. just my two cents. but you have gotten some good advice from these other guys, so I hope it works out for you :-)