This topic is a spinoff from a different post and was brought up to continue this conversation. Original topic is here http://www.rotarytattoo.com/showthre...wk-carts/page2
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This topic is a spinoff from a different post and was brought up to continue this conversation. Original topic is here http://www.rotarytattoo.com/showthre...wk-carts/page2
Not for all time to come. In the USA it's 20 years. As for TTECH being better, that is just your opinion and I'm sure many other peoples opinion, but the bottom line is that it is still just an opinion as I know a lot of people will disagree also. And as for the twist lock, I don't doubt that there are other things in this world that twist and lock, but the issue is how the twist and lock is achieved and for what purpose. This twist lock serves a purpose and has a specific function besides locking something into place. It sets needle depth also. If you think the only protection they have is the rights to exact copies then I think you really need to research patents and how they work. This would be true if cheyenne held only a design patent. The patents they hold are utility patents. If TTECH had a different locking mechanism and also were incompatible with cheyenne machines then I wouldnt view it as a knockoff. I'm all for progress. Just don't infringe on patents. When cheyennes 20 years is up, knock yourself out. Until then, change the back part of your catridge and don't make them compatible with their machines. Simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by slicksteel
No one is saying you can't make a cartridge system. I have a machine with a catridge system that is older than 20 years. The whole back part of TTECH's is a complete ripoff of cheyenne and were marketed to cheyenne users since the beginning. They were basically piggy backing off cheyennes success. If they changed the back part of their cartridge and made them incompatible with cheyenne machines then I wouldn't view them as ripoffs. If anyone thinks cheyenne don't deserve to have their patents has every right to dispute it in a court of law. Until then, someone at the USPTO felt they deserved their patents.Quote:
Originally Posted by darkness
The twist lock is found on many things... I have it on a few cafe bikes for the gas lid... Also a few other vintage things I own.. Their is also a few tubes I have that have removable tips that are the same from the late 80s that are metal.. I don't believe they invented it but they did patent it.. I use both cartridges but I do see the differences between each ..
ditto on that ^^.-I do now about patents and yes I realize that they paid the money and took other peoples ideas to make their product and to lock it up with patents etc. And they have the money to enforce it in a court of law. I dont agree with it as there is tons of people that have invented stuff and just because they dont have a shit load of money to pay someone they don't get any were with it and don't have the ability to sue everyone. We all know of a some companies that did that and it caught up with them. Cheyenne them shelf seen how popular the t-tech grips were and stole that idea. All I see is Cheyenne is a big company that does not even tattoo and just jumped on the wagon as they had the money to do so and combined ideas that were all ready in place such as using a directdrive machine with a rod.That idea was done years ago by alot of uk machines. I would say the only original part of it would be the grip it shelf which was poorly made at first. Infact the depth of the machine at first was very shallow/weak, yet they tried to market it to tattooers as a all in one that was better then any thing out there-it was only after getting enfo from tattooers that there machine was made to work better in all aspects of tattooing.
Hey slick I agree with ya on this one!
so am I reading this correctly they really didn't invent anything, they just had the money to patent it? If that's true whats the point of even arguing it.
Their isint a point really.. That type of system has been around for a long time... It would be like someone trying to patent how they wrap coils..
I have to admit, I have no firsthand knowledge about cheyenne or ttech so I have to rely on info that I can verify. I know that cheyenne has been operating years before TTECH which is a fact. TTECH has been around since end of 2010 according to canada.gc.ca website I found. Cheyenne has been operating before 2008 according to forum posts on other websites. Improvements to existing ideas can be patented as long as ideas are not patented already. With that being said, what evidence do you have that they stole these ideas? Just asking as I am curious myself. Not saying your lying or anything. Can you send me links to any pictures of tattoo machines with push rods from the UK or anywhere? Just curious to check out who cheyenne copied from or who you think they copied from. I don't know if anybody at cheyenne tattoos or not so I can't say otherwise, but that has nothing to do with their right to own these patents. In some peoples eyes, yea, I know they wont respect that. If that's the case, then you should be mentioning Ray of neotat and tattooed pirate as well. They make a living and don't tattoo themselves and a bunch of other builders do the same. They make kickass products according to people on here though. Not attacking you Slick so don't take this post the wrong way. Just need you to shed some more light on the subject as I currently view TTECHs as ripoffs and I do hope you can change my view on it. For the record though, I don't own any cheyenne products.
The manner in which something is manufactured can be patented also. Just so you know.Quote:
Originally Posted by artoftatt2
i havent tried ttech carts but i was told by a few different tattooers that ink can get sucked up into the grip and into your drive and ruin your machine.
I think that this is going to be a thread full of opinions and pointless arguments that are really meaningless. I'm gonna go back to painting as I don't have time get into it over this.. And the fact that I should prolly spend my free time doing art rather than worrying about shit that doesn't involve me...
Nouveau Contour is a per manent cosmetic company that sells a cartridge with a membrane and made exactly like hawks carts. They have a patent on theirs as well. Why isn't cheyenne sueing them. My wife uses these and I have taken several apart. Made exactly like hawk carts.
Shawn they are one and the same owned by the large company of shareholders.
Hey Dave, I use both, i have yet to have one get sucked up into the tube at all. and its been about 6 months.Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunDave
the way i look at it..... Cheyenne nailed it so hard that this cartridge technology will become main stream or take at least half of the market... For rotary it makes all the sense in the world.. coils not so much.
That being said.... whoever invented the needle bar was copied to this day... When something revolutionizes an industry to such an extreme degree it will always be copied... improved, manipulated, etc etc....
Cheyenne does have a case... and it they were the same price as t tech.. i would buy Cheyenne all day long.. fact is ... t tech is pretty damn good and 1/3 the price
Cheyeene is wayyyyy overpriced... so fuck em ... if there is one thing that Walmart has taught us is that its a doggy dog world and capitalism is the law of the land.
Now this is the point that I am surprised no one has stumbled upon. Now I can't remember the name of the parent company but is something like DKM or PDK or I dunno. The point is, they are a large cosmetic tattoo equipment manufacture. They own Cheyenne and some lower name brands as well. All of them mostly cosmetic. I believe they have two or three types of cartridges that only fit certain machines. Much like certain razors only fit certain handles. In all seriousness they most likely did invent the cosmetic cartridge and have since adapted it to tattooing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn
Cheyenne has a cool system, just not for me. At the end of the day they are a cosmetic company making money off of the tattoo industry. Yes they have the patents, that's what big companies do. Big companies also try and stop innovation in. Markets that they dominate. Just look at all the regulations we have here in Germany. The funny thing is, that it has a lot more regulation on pigments and equipment than most places.
Ok I found the parent company. Mt.Derm.
http://site.mtderm.de/english/
Well excuse me ! I like both ttech and hawk carts. No need for us to argue about this shit on here. Let these companies take care of their buissness and we can take care of ours Tattooing!! Sorry I tried to stir the shit pot. Have fun wasting your time bickering back and forth I'm gonna go tattoo.
in an enclosed system like the hawk...this might be possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by CajunDave
but with any other rotary in which you can see the drive bar....this would be close to impossible....unless you were a complete idiot...because you could actually see the ink creeping up the bar
i have been using t-tech for about 6 months now....i haven't had a single problem.....i haven't even had any ink leak in any way...not even into the grip.
I don't have a dog in this fight (no pun intended) because I don't use cartridges but, "a doggy dog world"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey0n7fHOwpk is a world that Snoop created. A "dog eat dog world" is what capitalism created. Hahahahah! Sorry, go ahead w/ the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by crabink
It does seem that cheyenne is bashing t-tech products and saying they are not sterile,poorly made and basily get ink everywere-which people that use them know that is all a lie to get people not to buy them.
Yeah mt derm is the parent company, there was a huge thing about them in a tattoo master mag, as far as im concerned fuck em!!! There not tattooists there not her to help our industry just make as much money from ridiculous overpriced cartridges and machines that promote bad hygene! Half the artists using them dont autoclave the grip after every use! Dirty and give nothing to this world just take take take!! I would rather spend £450 on 3 rotaryworks machines and support one of our own dale, who has given tattooing more than he has taken or on an fk iron or spektra and support gaston and use groundbreaking machines made by tattooists for tattooists!
I couldn't agree more Fluff
agree and agree
So in conclusion... This Cheyenne parent company is not "by tattooists, for tattooists" they are "from profit, for profit". so fuck em. It's settled then.
Make sure that you all email ttech and tell them you want black plastic and want them to update their website daily or at least weekly and get the pics in there.
Explain to them that we want them to evolve into an even better company, because if they start to get emails from us with our support it may light a fire under there ass.
We want black cartridges so that we can all tattoo murdered out with the new FK irons RPG grip, and we want to see pictures of every needle cartridge, even though we already know what they look like. lol
Thread closed!
Peace nuggah, Crab out!
I think TTECH can stand on their own merits (from the feedback I read about them here ) without copying the back part of cheyenne cartridges. TTECH aint owned or run by tattooist by the way. They are chinese owned and operated. The owner Long Xiao used to work for a needle making plant and left to set up shop in Canada. So if you wanna live by tattooist for tattooist, you shouldn't be using TTECHs either. Just my opinion though. Not that it should really matter since the majority of tattooers are all using china made needles. As for Cheyenne, I could give a fuck about them myself. My issue was more with the copying of a patented product which is what this discussion was suppose to be about and not ethical codes of standards. With that being said, TTECH, CHeyenne, or whatever you choose to use, I hold no judgement. Just voicing an opinion for discussion. I knew it was gonna be a one sided argument from the get go as everyone loves their TTECHs.
I am not for either side, I just thought that ( much like you ) people should know the companies behind theses products.
Infringing on a patent is of course wrong. So is feeding off an industry. Needles and the ethics of them would make for yet another great conversation. Patents seem loaded these days. Seems as if companies use patents to try and keep innovation to a minimum. ( look at Samsung Vs Apple a big drawn out pissing match that accomplishes nothing ). The big problem here is brand loyalty, I don't think anyone cares about the patent. I think both companies build the needles in China.
Yeah i dont use t-tech either!! DONT own a single cartridge machine or adaptor grip!.. BUT cheyenne are bringing slander and trying to slur any competition that use there idea!.. What next sue stylus?.... Sue gaston becuase he made a cartridge adaptor grip?... I agree you should NOT rip other peoples tattoos or equiptment, but saying using t-tech voids your warranty is stupid and claiming they leak and destroy your machine i have never heard a single example of this except a friend of a friend said.... Its just causing rumours. I dont care for how they do business and i think they dont care for our business/industry/lifestyle at all!.. Next we will have price comparason websites for tattoo's..! Fuck them too if they ever exist!!
As much as I tried to stay away from this subject I couldn't resist to add my opinion.
We all should respect patents. Infringing a patents "acknowledging it" is plain rude and unethical business decision.
Cheyenne does have a patent for their cartridges and their patents should be respected. Now, patents are very tricky and some times by slightly changing a design or function you could patent a whole product of your own. Messed up?? maybe...
I think that T-Tech could have done a better job at designing a cartridge of their own with their own fitting system and gripcompete with a product of their own creation, rather than introducing a cheap version of the Hawk Cartridge, because that's what they are too me.
I think that great ideas should be protected but at the same time there it needs to be some room for others to evolve without crossing the fine line.
I'm sure Cheyenne spent way too much money to allow someone to make profit on their creation. Do I think the membrane situation is a deal breaker?? Well, not when I cannot dispose the tube I use. DO I think Cheyenne has a valid point in here?, of course I do. They took the necessary steps to make their work "theirs"
Ok let's face it, there will always be design spin offs and improvements. As far as hawk and ttech, ttech saw a market and a need to a hawk alternative that was cheaper and they met that demand. I just could not bring myself to buy hawk carts for that price, especially when I don't have a hawk machine. I like the looks and feel of the ttech grips and they serve their purpose very well. I don't see hawk advertising to all other machine users about converting to hawk grips and carts.
We have bishops, neotats, impacts, and many more slider style machines, every one had to have been inspired by something or someone! If hawk has the quality and the superior design than their customers will stay loyal to the product. If not than ttech is the alternative. I don't think that anyone should have a monopoly on an idea, otherwise we end up with $5 gas prices and a product that can't be regulated by competitors. Competition is what drives the economy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazman
So basically you are saying that is OK to knock off a product for the sake of a discount??. Search for Spektra Halo on ebay...you can buy them for $39 bucks, I cannot even buy a motor for that money. T-Tech is not an alternative to me, it's an insult to intellectual rights.
I think T- Tech should have design their own system. Change it around and make it completely different. the fact that they did it to fit on a Hawk is a big slap on their faces.
This is not competition, this is ripoff.
The bottom line is the whole idea of patents/copy right only holds the poor down and rewards the rich. I believe the world would be better with out any type of patents etc. The pool of ideas would be endless and just as some one would spring of your ideas and use them ,you could to. Progress in all things would be very fast. And you would not lose money infact you would make more money as you would learn from others mistakes and not waste tons of money on R&D as well as others learning from yours. The whole idea of not sharing knowledge and ideas to the rest of the human race is stupid ,greedy & childish. So what if you spent time and money on something-look at as a contribution to the human races pool of knowledge and advancement.
update this was not directed at anyone just in general-
Actually if you look into it cheyenne diddint invent that needle system.. They just copyrighted it.. So does that make them still the ones being slighted?
I would love to use Cheyenne cartridges, but 10 for 30.00? fuck me... would cost me 550.00 a month to use them... and that's a soft 6 cartridges a day estimate
Would love to see Gaston make his own t tech cartridges (loves putting ideas in his head), and make em better and different than Cheyenne to not infringe upon the patent rights and sell em for 1.00 each like t tech.
note to Gaston .. make em 1/4 turn to lock .. black.. 1.00 each
Hey Art, I'm not saying you're wrong as I don't know what's been out there in regards to needle cartridges. Just curious, if not cheyenne, then who invented the cartridge with a membrane and same back connector that twists to lock? Can you point me in the right direction to look it up? I've yet to see a similar needle cartridge system like cheyennes. Here's a machine that was passed down from my mom that is more than 20 years old (She preferred her coils though which she also passed down). This used to be patented. You can see the patent numbers on the side. International patent.Quote:
Originally Posted by artoftatt2
Attachment 19929Attachment 19930
Cartridge system with direct drive plunger that don't fit Cheyenne. Completely different way of doing things though. Has a grip and carts can be pulled on and off on the fly. Cheyennes system is similar but definitely different enough to be patented in the USA.
Tru-that is what i am saying if companies have the money they can take other people's ideas and copyright them and pretend they were theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by artoftatt2
It's been years since I've seen it but it was the same twist lock cartridge.. I'm not a huge fan of cheyenne considering the fact that they don't care about tattooers.. Although I do use their products hopefully ill be all flite soon.. But I deff don't see anyone bad mouthing the guys that came out with grips for the cartridges after cheyenne already had a grip.. I know of at least four companies stepping on their toes over that one and its just the same...
And personally I don't give a shit... I use whatever helps me feed my kids and do better tattoos.. I live in the USA , our forefathers stole everything to build this country. I don't see people getting upset about that.. Yet everyone finds time to get upset over a knock off or other stupid shit.. Who cares.. If you make something good and are a good person ill buy your product if its worth a fuck.. If you are a shit bag and point fingers and worry about the wrong things that's less time you have to better your self or company.. This isint targeted toward any one... Trust me I will tell anyone I have an issue with point blank.. Rant over