Direct Drive Question

This question is for veteran tattoo artists that used coils for a long time before switching to rotary.

My question is this:
Is it possible to use a direct drive for anything from lining to smooth black and grey, color portraits and color packing, and never have to use a machine with give at all ever?

The reason I asked is because I was doing a large black and grey piece today with my new Prodigy (RCA lol) using a straight edge 9 Bug pin mag, and a straight 13 Bug pin mag
It was a sacred heart, angel, roses.. the whole shebang.. and I didn't really use any give on the Prodigy. It was more speed and depth

Am i right to assume that using the proper stroke length, the correct volt speed, and precise depth is all that matters and that give doesn't really do shit?
I know for a fact that give on a coil machine is crucial because the downward force of the magnet if very quick and powerful and the only thing stopping the needles is dermis and the rear spring tension.
Thus it is really easy to go to deep.

Most of the guys on this site prefer no give machines from what i have seen

Yeah from what i see the give on a prodigy is not really going to do much. I mean yes when you run it and your finger is able to push the nipple back i see that... but most rotaries are running fast and seem to rely on the safety of the crank wheel to pull back the needle and not the skin like a coil... My RW I.D. in my opinion seems to work very well with no give. I think the Centri design is a rotary with true give... and I hope that kind of technology is perfected one day because it is a truly smart way to make a tattoo machine hit, and the fact that you can adjust the stroke on the fly is super sick. It sucks that the centri's failed pretty bad from what i hear. I hope he hits a muthafuckinhomerun with the new one.

if u run the rotary works springer with max give it and on low volts if backs off quite a bit when hitting the skin and that one of the cheapest price wise adjustable give u can get, i imagine the higher ends have to back off

I'll fuck with the prodigy and I. D. Some more,,. See how it goes

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crabink

from what i see the give on a prodigy is not really going to do much.

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I'm at a loss for words on this. Prodigy at 7 volts with the give backed out all the way barely breaks the skin, all the way in at 7 volts and it will pack like a damn 4mm DD. Id say the give has full range and does way more than "not much". Not to call you out but have you even used a centri? and do you know what give is pertaining to rotaries? Shit. To answer your original question anything is possible.

For the record I prefer no give. I just find that if you are doing something that covers different skin tensions and contours I end up messing around with the give continuously. Where as with a direct drive, no give machine, I know I have the capability to drive the pigment home with no messing around. Saying that though, im recently going back to coils for lining. Just feel the punch of a coil for single pass, bold lines cant be beat. BTW im no veteran, this just my general opinion.

I prefer no give too, you can use a combination of your grip/stretch & hand pressure to get a certain level of give from the skin, I might be wrong but I think its Franco talks about this on one of his DVD's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crabink

This question is for veteran tattoo artists that used coils for a long time before switching to rotary.

My question is this:
Is it possible to use a direct drive for anything from lining to smooth black and grey, color portraits and color packing, and never have to use a machine with give at all ever?

The reason I asked is because I was doing a large black and grey piece today with my new Prodigy (RCA lol) using a straight edge 9 Bug pin mag, and a straight 13 Bug pin mag
It was a sacred heart, angel, roses.. the whole shebang.. and I didn't really use any give on the Prodigy. It was more speed and depth

Am i right to assume that using the proper stroke length, the correct volt speed, and precise depth is all that matters and that give doesn't really do shit?
I know for a fact that give on a coil machine is crucial because the downward force of the magnet if very quick and powerful and the only thing stopping the needles is dermis and the rear spring tension.
Thus it is really easy to go to deep.

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IMO, yes it is possible to cover all the aspects of tattooing using a selection of no give/ non adjustable Rotary Machines...Some Rotaries hit way harder than others irrespective of volts..The Peter Tiegs for instance is one of the hardest I have came across, and the RW-ID is one of the softest hitting...There are great no give Rotaries available, and as I said, some hit softer than others, I found the Bishop to be a medium hit...So in theory, all you need to find is a Hard/Med and Soft hitting Machine,however, stroke also comes into play.....Depending on your style, In my opinion, an RW Triple, an ID and a DDO, will cover all the bases...

An adjustable Machine offers more scope for blending, or layering as, if set up correctly, it causes less trauma and enables multiple passes..The same can be achieved with no give machines as well, if the user is experienced enough working with a no give machine...

With regards to Give "being crucial" on a Coil Machine, again, certain factors need to be considered..and will depend on what the user is trying to achieve..Such as Throw, Force of Hit, Spring Gauge-Set up, etc etc etc..IMHO,Hand speed is most crucial when Packing/Saturating/Shading with a Coil Machine, as a Slow hand + fast running, hard hitting Machine = Trauma in the case of colour work, and if you Line slower than your Coil Machine runs, you can "charge" the line, and face the possibility of "ink spread/inconsistent line work, etc etc... I run off the needle for Lining and 4mm throw is the norm with me, and still some "hang", so I rely on Hand speed and Hand strength when lining.....For doing colour work, I have 4mm throw available, but ride the tube, so again, hand speed/strength is really important...

So to summarize, as I seem to have rabbled on,LOL...Yes, a selection of no give/non adjustable Rotaries, will cover everything (depending on your style)..Yes, stroke length, Volts, needle depth, hand speed and hand strength will, IMO, replace "Give"...See above for the advantages of "Give"...

I have reverted back to mainly Coil Machines....However, I will always, have my RW Triple, RW-ID and a few Old Timer DDO's....

Yeah i got the old timer, i use same 4 machines everyday.. Neo vivace, old timer, rotaryworks I.D and rotaryworks 12v all 4 are no give, but all totally different... I think you can do anything with that set and i see from skinmech's post he agrees with basically same set (-the neo and a triple instead of standard 12v) i prefer the dd and ddo's personal opinion but i dont use any "give" machines.

i wanted give at first but i dont use much of it now and noticed that i prefer my kubin direct drive right now so im hoping i love the hm adjustable dd im getting soon if its as good as the kubin and versatile then i prob wont use much else

It all comes down to the person and the way they tattoo, for a few months I will only use me DD for everything lining/shading/color. Now I only use them for soft shading but it still depends on the body area. I think its in silence of the machines Franco talks about organic give and I strongly agree except in certain cases of older skin and feet tattoo which I switch back to a coil with a good amount of give. There are so many ways to set up the DD to allow some "give" soft rubber grommets over paper towels or if you run something like the old timers you can open the needle loop so it has some play and kind of offers give. Hope this helps/or makes sense

Look at the work done with Cheyenne machines or the stylus h. Line color shade... Amazing variations of work done with no give

I do it everyday man. it's all about technique though. Study up on it before you try. Highly recommend watching the DVD "Silence of the machines". Where Angelo pulls off a portrait using a neo tat. Did wonders for me. You just need to pay more attention to depth. Using a machine with no give is ideal really. To me it puts all control on the artist. Not depending on springs which vary on area of the body and hit that changes throughout the tattoo. . Not a fan of the hang time in rotaries with give systems. Can be a bit of a drag! lol Once you figure it out, there is nothing like being able to plug and play every time.

to add a little to the variety of how no gives hit different. I just got a Rotary Works Slim line, and that thing was hitting way softer than say a standar rW or a nicks rotary maybe it was because the difference of stroke length.. u can also really tell alot by listening to how they hit the skin each machine makes a different sounds while working the needles.. maybe only really noticable if ur machine is super quiet but listen and u will hear it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MickWrath

I'm at a loss for words on this. Prodigy at 7 volts with the give backed out all the way barely breaks the skin, all the way in at 7 volts and it will pack like a damn 4mm DD. Id say the give has full range and does way more than "not much". Not to call you out but have you even used a centri? and do you know what give is pertaining to rotaries? Shit. To answer your original question anything is possible.

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I dont know man.. but like i said a springer will back way off so I imagine a machine that cost 300 more wood do the same and much more..

Pretty interesting stuff.. Overall it seems the predictable and repetitively safe stroke of a rotary keeps you near the dermis surface and because they run a little faster they seems to pack or even blend quickly and evenly. Give just seems to let you dial in the DD style hit, softening it a little. Seems to me that there really isn't a superior technology (yet)
before my RW I.D. I would never dare believe in no give. Kinda let's me know just how resilient the dermis can be with this type of hit. I will continue to use my prodigy and rw I'd... And see how it goes now that I switched all my coils to RCA.

Oh and by the way.. Kingpintattoosupply and painfulpleasures have the best RCA conversion kits I found..