The new Terminator twin motor from Paulo Cruze is out!

[OwlsDen]

I do not know the numbers or the science behind it.. But I know that my instinct is telling me that unless you have some kind of clutch or something to sync them.. driving one A-bar with two motors seem more trouble than good.

On a large scale yes, on a small scale ( like the tattoo machine ) it isn't that much of a problem.. The benefit will happen when you bog it down, the added torque will bring back up to speed faster..

[peter clements]

Paulo let me pick one up and play around with it at AMJAM ,very low vibration,quiete,and surprisingly nicely balanced in the hand.The build looked good, but truthfully as with all machines you'd have to roll with it quite a while to make judgement. Paulo did say they have a lot of torque, and are for the artist that doesn't like f*cking around.

[MickWrath]

I had one of his coils some years back and it ran pretty nice. Hopefully he put as much into these as he did to build his coil reputation...before the drama that is.

[directDRIVE]

David would dividing the stress on the motors in half be one aspect? I would suspect it would operate and lower volts as well, hopefully the Hz wouldn't drop too far though because I know low Hz can be hard on a rotary engine.

Aesthetics aside... what we are actually dealing with is torque and desired output across a given range here and - I can only talk about my own specific application - halving the load is indeed one of the many factors, though you really need to consider what the actual real world load is and if it indeed necessitates halving - for example in the Old Timer I use one 5w motor, I could use two, but there is no real accomplishment in halving the given load.

I would think the torque would be doubled and this would be good for larger mags.

Again, spot on on both counts! but the same could be achieved with a higher rated motor... again, no real advantage to substituting one high spec motor for two slightly lower spec motors - my experience being that to run two motors of say 2.5w to achieve an output of 5w is a false economy in combined weight, size, cost ect etc and a poor trade off against a higher rated single motor - if you want 4/5/6/7w, high torque at low RPM, wide power band etc etc it is much more beneficial to run a single motor of that rating

I don't know if the torque would be doubled, it still has to transfer synchronized torque through several components, depending on what style machine that component could be an armature bar, slider, springs, connecting link, cams, etc. not to mention the grommet and needlebar. I think a more likely situation is less volts, and less stress on the motors because they are working half as hard, this would result in longevity of motor life as long as both motors functioned at optimum performance, if one motor fell behind it would create more stress on the good motor and system failure premature. I've never tried to build or test a dual motor so it's hypothesis based on general experience with various motor performance and operating systems. I think an easier way to beef up the torque would just be simply upgrading the size of the motor, so there would have to be the need for different benefits to having dual motors besides torque and power, there's not a need for those things when we can just toss in a larger more powerful motor with a higher cyclic rate, more watts and more volts...however with the advancements in machines breaking ground so quickly I honestly wouldn't be surprised if electronic circuit boards are the next big steps. Like a rev unlimiter or a mini power commander. I still see dual motors as more work than just slapping 2 on a machine, if done correctly with A LOT! Of research, development, mathematical equations, trial and error maybe it could have it's benefits...question is did Paulo do his homework? Time will tell.

Doubled, possibly not but as good as. Baring in mind that running a single output of lets say 5w (just for arguments sake) you will suffer some form of loss from motor armature, through the drive system to the actual business end of your grouping; and that loss will be the same regardless of the number of motors you are running (theoretically) - if you loose 5% of your potential through your drive system then you loose 5% overall, and it is the output at the business end that counts.

Less stress on the motors at a lower voltage is true, per say, but you have to bare in mind that what you are trying to achieve is the result of a given set of parameters and those parameters are set by the motors that you are running - running a single motor that puts out 5000 RPM at 6v for example is no better or worse than running 2 that each put out 5000 rpm at 3v as they are all designed to operate at an optimum V/RPM/Torque inherently anyway (A high end motor that is designed to run at 6v will not 'outperform' 2 that are designed to run at 3v)

You do make an excellent point with regards to running dual motors in the instance of one lagging the other as this would indeed sap power from the stronger of the two, thus increasing amps drawn, resulting in overworking, over heating etc etc - something that I have pondered on and have one definitive answer... use good, reliable high end, rare earth magnet motors

"an easier way to beef up the torque would just be simply upgrading the size of the motor"

My sentiments exactly!

"I still see dual motors as more work than just slapping 2 on a machine"

Absolutely spot on on, I am definately more of a 'form follows function' kinda guy, and I arrived at a dual motor solution as a means to an end.... all i can say is watch this space (well, not this space, but you know what I mean )


Ok, I think I'd best leave it there as I think I may have already said far to much - I will say that I like it, it looks cool and I'm sure works well, is it necessary, probably not, but hey, who am I

[MickWrath]

You're a great builder and full of knowledge and experience David. Great response and hopefully it helps those understand the twin motor and it's performance benefits better. I'm sure the more we tinker with it the more will be revealed about it and it's pros and cons. Mick!!

[BLCXIII]

I just bought a renegade from him . Same twin motor design just side by side for a more conventional feel. It runs amazing! Packs black and color. Works for blends and I even did some black and grey with it. The cord he sent broke in two days but it was free. So whatever a quick trip to radio shack and I was back at it. The machine continues to impress me though! I am pretty happy with my purchase.

[directDRIVE]

now, the Renegade is a totally different kettle of fish

[OwlsDen]

now, the Renegade is a totally different kettle of fish

I would quite enjoy to hear your take on the side by side twin motor design. I would imagine that having both motors spinning in the same direction is better for the motors. What do you see as the benefit of such a design?

[directDRIVE]

I would quite enjoy to hear your take on the side by side twin motor design. I would imagine that having both motors spinning in the same direction is better for the motors. What do you see as the benefit of such a design?

Without giving too much away Its the parallel configuration that I have most vested interest in...

A side by side configuration offers the most potential - in my humble opinion - both for success and for resounding failure. I will allow the rest of you make up your minds as to my conclusions - the former of the later...


In this instance the question is not so much on the motors, and whether they run in the same direction or not, but on the accuracy of the motor, the subsequent given RPM per motor at a given voltage and the effect on the coupling/linkage that connects the drive of the motors to the armature/needle drive system (somebody earlier mentioned a 'clutch' system, and its necessity was briefly discussed...)

To expand, My issue in this application is first and foremost the motors and the pairing of the RPM at a given voltage. No two motors are created equally - fact. Even the highest spec motors have a degree of - almost immeasurable - variance, meaning that at any given voltage, unless specifically manufactured to be paired and to work in sequence (unheard of outside the realms of aerospace technology as far as I am aware), no two motors will output the same RPM. In simple terms, one motor has potential to make 1 full revolution per unit, and the other to make 1.5 revolutions, or 1.1, or 0.9 etc. etc. thus not in sync.

Secondly, combine that variance with a non-fixed linkage, and you have potential for trouble. If the point at which the linkage connects to an eccentric cam is a bearing, and the point at which the two 'uprights' connect to the cross member are pivoted, with the centre upright that connects to the armature/nipple appears being fixed; at some point when the motors run out of sync (which may or may not be the case here) you are going to have the separate cam's independently driving in apposing directions - one lifts, the other pulls down.

But then again, I could be VERY much mistaken.

The terminator seems to have a fixed linkage as far as I can see, thus somewhat negating all of this, but all with its own set of complications

[directDRIVE]

But then again, I could be VERY much mistaken.

But I'm not